STP 30 | Scaling Your Practice by Hiring A Players
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Do you like to get things done quicker, faster, and with less effort? So do I. So I created a Facebook group called assistants, automation and AI for mental health providers. You can search it in the Facebook search panel. And I created this because I love to talk about this topic. I love, , talking about assistance and how to hire them and manage them.
I love automations that do things for me quicker, faster, better. And then AI is just exploding on the scene. And I feel like I'm talking about all the, about it all the time and my friends are talking about it. So why not create a community group where we can discuss these things together, share ideas and get things done quicker.
I'd be humbled. If you joined the group and started contributing your favorite tips and tricks on assistance, automation and AI for mental health providers.
Go to the show notes, find the link for the group, or just search up assistance, automation and AI for mental health providers in the Facebook search bar. We'll see you there. Hello, this is James Marland with Dr. David Hall. This is the scaling therapy practice where we encourage you to take small steps that lead to big growth. Uh, hello David. Welcome. Hey, James. Uh, this week we're gonna be talking about, uh, the importance of hiring decisions and how to.
James Marland: Make great hiring decisions, but first we're gonna do our tip of the week. So David, you have a tool tip or tech of the week?
David Hall: Sure. Um, I wouldn't tell James before we started recording because. It is a chat, g p t, but it's not, but, but I wanna, so it's been, I haven't, I haven't, it's not been my tip. You've made it your tip multiple times, but I've, I've started using open ai.
David Hall: Well, Zapier's just released some templates of how to connect Zapier with chat, G P T. So I just saw that last night and I'm like, holy crap. Like I need to see about where, where that is. And so I, I'm, I'm haven't had a chance to investigate it, but if you use Zapier and you're interested in chat, g p T, that could be an interesting, I'm very curious, uh, on, because for those who aren't familiar, just Zapier is just, if you do any sort of automations, um, that can't be done internally within an application.
David Hall: Zapier can be this fix. It's kind of the duct tape of, uh, yeah. Of uh, automation services that you can, you can make a hold a lot of things together with it. Yeah.
James Marland: Like I've seen it. Somebody fills in a form and then it sends you, it sends emails or like notifies you or fills in data mm-hmm. Or updates something on your webpage just.
James Marland: In the background. It's, it's pretty amazing. Yeah. So ch Chat, G p T and Zapier.
David Hall: Uh, yeah. So if you go, if you go to Zapier Yeah. If, if you, you could find that James. Sure. But it's, it's on Zapier's website, but it's, it's like templates they have of how to connect, use chat, G p T with, with Zapier.
James Marland: Okay, so my, my tip of the week is, you know, everybody knows you. You should know I love Audible. And I, my new book of the week is, um, Four day work week with Tim Ferris. I see it on, which is very not
David Hall: new book,
James Marland: but it's a, well, it's not a new book, but you see it on everybody's two read list, you know?
James Marland: Mm-hmm. And, and so I finally, you know, I finished my last book, um, and so I, I was like, well, what should I do? And this came up, so I started doing it. And, um, I'm really liking some of the pH philosophies and, uh, questions like, Questioning the standard quo of you gotta go to work for 60 hours a week and grind away.
James Marland: And there's no other way to do it. There's no other way to, um, make a living. So just put your head down and work and hopefully you get the results you want. And, you know, that's kind of how I'd done things for the last 30 years. Just work hard and hope, hope things turn out. But he's sort of like challenging the, the, the, the status quo of that and saying, There, there's, there's a risk, there's a risk for not doing anything, I guess is the, the phrase that I was listening to.
James Marland: So sort of like, I, I think I do the safe thing by working, you know, staying in the nine to five and working hard and trying to advance and doing all the regular things you would think to advance while ignoring some of the other opportunities that sound crazy, like the moonshot stuff. And. He's challenging.
James Marland: My thinking is like that you're, if you don't take action, if you don't move out of your comfort zone, you're just gonna keep getting the same thing and then you're gonna end up, you know, the last five years of your life, uh, that you know when, when you retire, that's when you enjoy life. And he's really trying to challenge.
James Marland: The thought there and say, you can enjoy your life now. You just gotta think about time and money differently. And I, I've just really been enjoying the, the four hour work week with Tim Ferriss.
David Hall: Yeah, no, it's a, it's a, I own it, but I haven't read it yet. I'll be honest. I've read a lot of things about it and that's the funny thing about, like, I've, I've heard about the four hour work week for, cuz it came out I think about 15 or more years ago.
David Hall: At this point, I think it was like 2005, 2006 when it came out. And I've talked to so many people that that was their inspiration. You know, person I reference a lot in this podcast is one of my favorite podcasts online course show with Jacque Hopkins. Mm-hmm. And that's part of his, for so many people that create online businesses, that's often part of their story is, well, I read the four hour work week and I thought, oh, I don't have to be grinding on a nine to five and here's a different way to do it, and how do I.
David Hall: Implement this in my life. And, and he's, he has a podcast still, I think Tim Paris. And I'll have to check it. Check it out. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, great tip. Yeah.
James Marland: So yeah, if, if, if all these people that you respect mention a book, it might be good to, to check out the book. All right. So we're gonna, we're gonna transition into our discussion on hiring.
James Marland: And, uh, making good hiring decisions. Uh, I am, I'm leading a presentation shortly on, um, making good hiring decisions, specifically in hiring a virtual assistant. So I've done some extra research on this this week and, uh, David, of course, always has some great advice on hiring. So let's, let's start out the conversation about, um, I, I always like to, to think about how I used to do it, like, uh, how I used to hire.
James Marland: Um, was I, I felt like, uh, because I'd been interviewing people for 16 years and working in mental health, that I knew the difference between the truth and a lie, and I could tell, you know, I could tell when people are, uh, being honest with me about what they're doing and, uh, I would just go a lot by. My gut feeling.
James Marland: And I think a lot of people who haven't had training start out that way. Like, oh, I'll just, I know people, I've interviewed people, I'm just gonna go with my gut cuz I know people, what do you, what do you think about that? I mean,
David Hall: I think I've, I don't know if I've articulated that before, but I think I've had that because I, cuz I have a lot of confidence in my ability to read individuals.
David Hall: Um, and I do, but. I don't know. It's a different process. One of my expressions in therapy, and this is true, and I think in hiring, is that intimacy and objectivity are mutually exclusive. And what do you mean by that? So the closer you are to something, the less objective you are about it. Okay. So, you know, for your spouse or your children, um, Or your business partner and all that, they're not people you're gonna have, if, if that represents an intimate relationship, one that's you're close with, you're not gonna have a lot of objectivity about it.
David Hall: Mm-hmm. The, they work against each other and it's not that you don't have knowledge, like I know my wife better than almost anybody would. I would, I probably know her better than anybody, but I don't have a lot of objectivity when it comes to my wife, nor she with me. That's not the, the nature of the relationship works.
David Hall: In, in a counter direction. And so the reason that's relevant I think is as a therapist part of a good therapeutic boundary, which is one of the reasons I don't like how better help does things cuz they blur a lot of the boundaries in therapy is I'm am supposed to maintain a certain level of distance, not lack of concern or care, but ultimately my clients are not supposed to be embedded in my normal life.
David Hall: They're, they're not supposed to be people that. I get drinks with after work or, or that I socialize with. Mm-hmm. Like their rules against that. And I think one of the reasons that's good is because it allows me to see them and their stories and all that in ways that I have a bit more detachment and that gives me more objectivity.
David Hall: But when you're hiring for yourself, and I think it's even just that process, like you're probably better at hiring for other people than you would be for yourself. Cuz when you're hiring for yourself, it's personal. Yeah. And so your objectivity will diminish. Yeah,
James Marland: I think we lose that. Um, when, when we, when we feel like our role is to, to hire people, we lose the objectivity of looking for red flags, like looking for the things that, uh, you sh you should notice what that, um, if you're.
James Marland: You know, if, if it was, you're, hi. Just as you said, if you're hiring for somebody else, you'd see it a mile away and be like, oh no, you can't do that. Yeah. But, but you, you get blind to blind because of the closeness or blind because you've set up your role as like, I have to hire this person. I have to fill the spot, I have to make this money to make these bills, so I'm just gonna get the best.
James Marland: Of the best of what I can find, but that might not be the best person for your, for your position.
David Hall: Mm-hmm. No. I've had instances where it, it, I think part of it is I'm generally optimistic. Mm-hmm. Um, which is a, a, you know, it's a good trait in a lot of situations. It's a therapist. It's a good trait for a therapist.
David Hall: Yeah. It's a good trait, but it's, it's horrible. As a hiring person, because I am, I am very inclined in my temperament. Yeah. To minimize the deficits and to repackage them as like, oh no, it's not this bad, it's this other thing.
James Marland: Well, cuz you're trained to believe in the ability of people to grow and change, right?
James Marland: Like, you have to believe that. I think, I
David Hall: mean, correct me if I'm wrong, as a therapist, I believe it's super important. Yeah. Yes. As a as, as a, but as in hiring process. Horrible. Um, I have, I, because I've hired a lot of people that I've taken, written that, like, I think of one person I hired and in their interview process, it was clear that they were not qualified for the job.
David Hall: That was clear to everybody in the hiring process, but I really liked this person. Yeah. And I thought, and so I, I, I'd created a new role for them in this idea and gave them six months. I don't really regret it. I gave him six months to say like, Hey, look, you're not, you. Your experience has not qualified you for this job, but I'm, I'm wondering if I could, if you could learn it.
David Hall: And so I'll, I I created this like different role. I'm like, you can, if you wanna do this, you can do this for six months and if you can learn the role, and, you know, as I, and I don't regret that necessarily, um, because I set myself expectation at the beginning of this, but I was, I did it in the hopes that after six months, This person would be where they needed to be and could be in the full role.
David Hall: And they weren't the end of six months, it was very clear that they weren't, um, there. And, um, the, the one thing I, I appreciated of what I did is I, I didn't just hire them. I, I, I set something different that was very time limited. Mm-hmm. And it gave me an out, but, No, there are other times that I, I look at, I, I see different red flags and I think like, well, they just need to grow some and if they're in the right environment and they're in, because that's what I do as a therapist.
David Hall: Yeah. But, um, it's too much work as a boss. Um, it's not that people don't grow, but they have to fit into the pot initially. Mm-hmm. Like, you, you, if the, if the tree or the flower or whatever it is, if it, if it can't. There's a certain point where it has to be developed enough to be planted to thrive. And if it's not developed enough, then I can't plant it in my particular garden.
David Hall: Or even
James Marland: using your, um, your planting analogy, it, you might be, it might be a great plant, but your business is the wrong soil for them. Mm-hmm. Like they're, you're not the right environment for, uh, I don't think there's very many citrus trees up north where I am. You
David Hall: know, it's just the long No. Unless this is a
James Marland: greenhouse.
James Marland: Yeah, which is, which takes a lot of effort and work. You know, in going with the analogy, if you're a business that has a greenhouse, you might be able to transplant people. But I think most businesses, most do not have that environment to take a, the wrong fit and transform them into the right fit. We think we can like, I don't know how many times we've hired people, just like you said, oh, I think I can.
James Marland: I think they have the right skills. I think they have the right personality. I hope I can make it work. And then you realize either they don't, they're not the right fit, or you don't have the time or the energy to devote to somebody who's such a, just not a good fit, not a bad person, but just not a good fit.
James Marland: For your environment and, uh, but we think, we think we can because we're good, you know, we're good with people and I know people and I have a good instinct and, um mm-hmm. I like this person. I think the term I'm searching for, what, when you were talking was confirmation bias. Does that fit where
David Hall: you, where you I agree.
David Hall: Well, it, it's, I You go in already with the Yes in mind.
James Marland: Yeah. Like I'm a hiring manager. I have to hire people. My default is default if I find somebody Default. Default is yes. Yeah. My default
David Hall: is yes. And I'm trying to maintain in the default. And
James Marland: because that's your job. Your job is to hire somebody. So you gotta, you gotta say yes to somebody, right?
James Marland: But I think you're gonna, you're gonna present something a little, uh, different here, aren't you?
David Hall: Well, you, you're talking James, about being in the roles, being a hiring manager, and, and since that's the, the lack of objectivity there is, you know, my job is to hire, And so if I'm not hiring, that means I'm not doing my job.
David Hall: And that is a negative self-reflection, or can be. Mm-hmm. And so that's where we lose objectivity because it's too personal in that like, I am in this, you know, for me it's not my job. It it's the, it's one of the things I do in my job as a, as a clinic, uh, director. But here's where my compromise Mission, it's not that I think, oh, it's my job to hire, but it is, it is my, I don't.
David Hall: Like having to go through the hiring process necessarily. And so part of the reason I've pushed forward with people is I'm trying to solve the problem of having a certain number of clinicians in a practice. Mm-hmm. And how do I reach that? My goal is to be able to reach that and quit hiring is my personal goal.
David Hall: And so I have the, the, the vision. It's sort of like you go to buy a car and you go to the car dealership, so. What they do, the sales process is they get you already imagining yourself in this car and then you've kind of committed to that vision and you work backwards. And that's where you justify taking on a car payment for seven years.
David Hall: Or you kind of, it is because you've already in your mind, you're already there and then, then you just kind of, how do I make this fit? Um, and it's, it's just how a lot of things work. And for this, when I'm bringing a candidate, I've already, if, if they're to the point where I'm bringing them in for an interview, I've already kind of thought like I've, I've already had a positive thought of this person I think could fit, and I want them to fit because if I hire this person and they fit, then I don't have to hire another person.
David Hall: And that means I don't have to hire right now, which is great. That's one less thing I don't wanna have to do. Mm-hmm. And so it, I'm trying to solve a problem, and I think this kind of goes into, if you're a problem solver, You wanna find solutions and you wanna find solutions in as speedy as possible. And to say no to candidates doesn't feel like a speedy process.
David Hall: Particularly when you don't feel you're inundated with quality candidates. I I, it's funny, like, and this could be a conversation for another day of posting ads, cuz I've done like for, for hires, posting jobs cuz I've done it before on Indeed and Monster here. Here's what I could, I have never ever gotten a quality candidate.
David Hall: I felt that I hired from that ever. And so I am very, now I that it could happen for other people. I don't want to to to knock that, but I, at least in my own process, my positive hires have been from word of mouth and, but people that are responding to a job posting on a board, I get, but that, that is discouraging because I, I, I'm trying to figure out what's the best of the worst candidates in that situation.
David Hall: Yeah, I think
James Marland: that's a, a flaw of job posting boards where we think. If I post it, they will come type of thing. If I post my job, they'll come. But what we end up, what we end up posting is, is things that, um, the, the, the post attracts people who want a job, not necessarily your job. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, if we don't put in, like I, I, I know people do this, but I, I think a job posting needs the mission.
James Marland: And then the tasks and the behavior that you're looking for, like super clear about what you are going for. And then the other, the the hidden thing I put in my job posting is, if you really want this job or if you're interested in this job, put in the subject line. You know, please look at my resume, or, I'm really interested for this job because the people who want, the people who aren't just looking for a job, the people who want to work for you or your practice for, for your mission will read the post and do it.
James Marland: The, the people who are just looking for any job anywhere will just fill it
David Hall: out. I get one that starts like, dear hiring manager. Yeah. Or dear, like, where it's very, yeah. You know, clearly, like they're, it's going out to a lot of places. It's just that. Yeah. But it is for me, so the, the lack of objectivity for one role could be like, well, it's my job to hire.
David Hall: Mm-hmm. Either I've been, it's my job in this company, or this firm, or this practice, or it's what I've been hired as an outside consultant to do. I, I feel the need to do this. Or in my case it is, I want this task done. It's one of the reasons I'm a bad shopper. I, I don't like shopping. I don't like shopping for things I like And cuz some people, you know, they don't like shopping for things they don't care about, but they'll get excited to shop about things they enjoy.
David Hall: Like, I enjoy, you know, musical instruments and vehicles and, you know, things like, I don't enjoy shopping for them for the most part. Like, cuz for me, shopping is a barrier between this moment and the moment I wanna be in. I have to navigate. And so what happens is, is I try to, I, I will be hasty as a shopper if I go shoe shopping, you know, the first pair of shoes I try on that look okay and feel okay.
David Hall: Mm-hmm. And when I'm shopping with my wife, she goes, she wants, well, don't you wanna try more shoes? I'm like, no. I want the shopping experience to be done. And so it's similar for me hiring like I want. The shopping experience of hiring to be done so I can move on to having a quality team member. But because of that, that hastiness will often mean that I will because, because the thought is it's is particularly if it's the only candidate I'm considering in that moment, well, if I say no to this person, then I will continue to have the problem I'm trying to solve.
David Hall: And so I really want this to fit. I really want the round peg to fit in the square hole.
James Marland: That, that reminds me of a quote. Uh, a lot of my, a lot of my experience, uh, a lot of my advice on this comes from One Bad Decisions and two, the Hi, the Effective Hiring Manager. Mm-hmm. Um, it's Mark Horseman. Uh, I'll put a link in the book.
James Marland: Uh, but he, he was talking about the pain of the pain, the pain. Of saying, uh, no. When you should have said yes, is much easier to tolerate than the pain of saying yes when you should have said no. Uh, cause I would agree with that. The, the pain. The pain of saying no when you should have said a yes is you.
James Marland: You find out a year or two later. Your friend hired this person and they're a rockstar, they're doing great, and then you're like, oh, geez, you know, I should have hired them. It's the one that got away. You might think about it for 10 more minutes, or maybe the rest of the day you go to sleep and you will never think about that again.
James Marland: But the pain of saying yes to somebody, you should have said no to. Is a lasting, enduring pain. I would even call it a scar. Like we all have these scars in our management, uh, responsibilities and, and that is just something that will cause sleepless nights and tears and frustration and like disgruntled other coworkers and.
James Marland: The, the list of things that you mm-hmm. You bring in, the pain that you bring on yourself is long lasting and will have great effects. So, uh, saying yes, de saying yes to somebody you should have said no to is one of the worst decisions you can make. So choose, choose the other pain of like, Oh, I, I missed one that, I got, one that got away.
James Marland: It's just much easier to endure. That's been your experience, right?
David Hall: Absolutely. The, some of the most personal pain I would say I've had has been in business partnerships and hires mm-hmm. That were poor because it's not detached from me of, of like, it, it, you know, the, the lack of objectivity becomes cuz it's personal and then that pain ends up being very personal, very.
David Hall: And, Uh, you know, the, I, I'm trying to think of an instance. You talk about the first scenario, I'm trying to think of an instance, James, of, of some opportunity that I saw or hi or something like that, that I said no to, and then later kind of came back of like, oh, that would've been, mm-hmm.
James Marland: Actually, I can't think of too many in my, I can't
David Hall: think of too many.
David Hall: Part of it is is cuz I've been too involved in the Yes. Bias. Yeah. Like I, I have had instances where people who I had the sense of like, okay, they weren't. A good fit. And then I found them, them thriving somewhere else, but it didn't. And I was, but honestly I was generally pleased cuz I, I don't like saying people say no to people.
David Hall: Mm-hmm. And I want them to thrive. And I, I think of one instance where I, I was talking to somebody, they were looking for a job. I could tell from my first conversation with them that I didn't think they'd be a good fit. Um, but, and they were very disappointed when I didn't. Tell them like there's gonna be, but I, I did say, well, here's some other opportunities.
David Hall: If I was in your situation, I would explore. And they took my advice and they wrote me, they sent me a LinkedIn message later saying, um, I wanna let you know I took your advice and I talked to this group and I've just been hired and I wanna thank you so much. And I that I was pleased with that. Like I, if for me it was kind of consolation to help me not feel as disappointed that I said no.
David Hall: But I didn't have the thought of like, oh, well maybe I should have. So I can't think of an instance where, yeah. Um, that was like, oh, that would've been so, and anything that is coming to mind feels very small. Like, which Yeah. Yeah.
James Marland: It, yeah. Like it's, it's, it's not the it, yeah, it's not the enduring pain.
James Marland: Like the, the book says something. I think it's something like, um, uh, when you make a cake, you, you can substitute flour for sawdust. You can bake it, but you just can't eat it. Like, uh, you can, you can get the wrong people in, but it, it's, it's just eating painful cake for months and months. Um, and this leads me to one of my tips, uh, is, and so I, I grew up, uh, independent Baptist, which means I, you know, I grew up not playing cards, watching movies, listening to rock music or swearing, and I don't know if this is gonna like, I struggle saying this phrase, but, um, because of the swearing instance, but I, it's, it's in, it's burned in my head.
James Marland: If it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. Like you, you have to get, it's so strong. Like, if you are not like, oh, this person is perfect, then you have to get into the mindset that it's you, you let 'em go because you're gonna, you're gonna eat that bad cake if you, you leave them in. I
David Hall: generally agree with that phrase.
David Hall: It, it comes up in dating. It does it. Okay. It does, but I, I, uh, I, I'm more, it's funny, I'm more circumspect with people in that, because I think sometimes people have unrealistic expectations of Sure, sure. Of, of that. I, I generally think it's true. It is, but I, I. I think sometimes it's figuring out what, what are the things that lead to you?
David Hall: Yes or no. And I'll, I, there are some examples with this. I, I think of, um, there was one person, uh, that wasn't a hire for me, but for a friend of mine who this person came across as the, the, the person that was hired, uh, had some very quirky, awkward things in there that on first glance were, could be kind of off-putting, at least to my friend that was hiring.
David Hall: And they were, I was talking with them as they were trying to be like, you know, they seem to be a good candidate in all these sorts of reasons, but they just, they just seem a little awkward. And I said, well, I see how this is off-putting to you, but I said, do you think this would be off-putting for your clients?
David Hall: Mm-hmm. And they reflected on it and they said no, because I, I think for the sorts of people we serve, they would find it as disarming. So, And I'm like, okay, well then consider it. And they ended up deciding to hire them and ul ultimately they got over this person's quirks and was able to see like, oh, this person really did fit.
David Hall: But I, so I think sometimes we have to get out of our own way, but generally I, I agree with that, but reflecting on two different hires of mine, and this is where I think sometimes we should ourselves, like, oh, I should have seen this. Mm-hmm. Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. So there's one person. That I'm thinking of that they gave me indications in their interview that I should have said no, that I talked myself out of.
David Hall: Cuz I was already like, past my own tipping point of like, but I think this person's a good candidate. It should be fine, da da da. And they gave me some early indications and continued to give me some, and it, it went far too long. If I had not hired them in that moment, would've been better if I would've.
David Hall: Uh, move them on sooner. It would've been better, but it just, it drug on and it just got worse and worse. Like the cake, that sawdust cake, it's not appealing when it comes out in the oven, but it gets less appealing every day. Everyti, every day you eat it. Yeah. Every day it gets worse. Not better. And so that's one instance where I can think of where the, the dynamics where it, it was clear like there, the expectations weren't well aligned.
David Hall: That, um, for this person that there wa there was lack of certain maturity. There, there were lots of things that, that could have been indications of like, oh, this isn't, I, I need to not be so optimistic. And that's warning signs. But there's another person I think of that was an equally difficult hire and the, or they became, they didn't stay very long.
David Hall: It didn't end very well. Uh, it, it in, in my feelings of it. But there weren't a lot of warning signs. I, I look back on their interview process, uh, they didn't give warning signs necessarily. It was, it was truly a surprise. And cuz here's the thing, you could be really, you could take all the advice that James is giving and you're still gonna have ba bad hires.
David Hall: I don't know if there's any way to, to eliminate that, but the goal is reducing it. Mm-hmm. And, um, and how to. To, you know, what are the signs? But here's one of my signs I'll give for therapist very pre cuz I hire, um, pre-licensed therapists. A lot of people don't because of either it doesn't work in their financial model or legally, but where, how my practice works is we'll take on people that aren't independently licensed yet as super as postgraduate supervisees, that they work as employees In my practice that is controversial, uh, in.
David Hall: Certain clinicians because the idea is this is not the sort of job that a postgraduate should have. A postgraduate needs to work a much harder job for less money. Uh, they need to do community mental health. They need to do, because basically I offer what ends up being, um, a very lucrative, uh, uh, and, and not that hard job for people.
David Hall: Um, And friends of mine are like, look, they, they haven't earned this yet. They haven't, like they need to go. And, but I think there are issues with that, that, cuz we do have this mindset in the industry that like, you've gotta suffer and be overworked just like everybody else. Just like everybody else. Yeah.
David Hall: And so it becomes kind of like this hazing ritual, which does that actually lead to positive client care or therapist self development? So, So I, I, I hear the, the critique and I don't feel it's without merit, but I also think the critique has critiques to it. But here's one of the things I've learned, that if somebody feels too entitled to this as a pre-license early career therapist to the sort of job I offer, they are not a good fit.
David Hall: And when I'm doing initial interviews with people, somebody who, who didn't pass early on, With me, uh, that they didn't make it through the first tier of the interview process was, they said in the initial conversation of, I have always imagined myself immediately in private practice and I can't imagine myself doing anything else.
David Hall: And I thought, Hmm, that lack of imagination is gonna make this difficult. Mm-hmm. Um, because I find that people that end up doing that, they don't, they're not happy. They, they often feel like they, that, um, you know, it's that, that the job that they have in my practice should be more than what it is. It should be more money or it should be more freedom, or it should be more.
David Hall: And they, they, it's pretty good for on the freedom and the income index. But if they come in with this was their minimum, if the job I'm offering 'em is their minimum expectation, It's very hard for me to keep pace with that. The sort of candidate that does well is the one that even is a little hesitant that like, you know, am I really ready for something like this?
James Marland: Yeah, I, I can, I can relate to that cuz some of the, some of the questions, um, well I might not have articulated it as good in the, um, the early days was I wanted people who. Who loved doing the tasks of a virtual assistant. Cause they hired a bunch of virtual assistants and they didn't feel like it was beneath them.
James Marland: Mm-hmm. Like they didn't feel like, you know, I'm too good to answer the phones, or, I'm too good to answer emails. Um, you know, who, who is this therapist? You know, you're my boss, who's this other boss that I have. Those types of things, that type of behavior. And I think, um, it's the job of the person hiring to ask great targeted questions that get to get to those behaviors, to like root out.
James Marland: What, what, what is the behavior that I need and how do I ask the questions in such a way to help them demonstrate that they have this characteristic or this behavior that fits in my, that fits in my group? Because, you know, somebody who has bigger dreams might be, might be good for another position, um, but if they don't see themselves as like a helper, For, for a virtual assistant, let's say, then they're not gonna do a great job because they're always gonna be in conflict with getting all these tasks to do just the same way.
James Marland: If they're not, if they don't see themselves working in a group practice, then they're not a great fit for working in a group practice.
David Hall: Absolutely. And you know, they're small things that I've learned. Like one is we have a kitchen at my office. And the kitchen has a dishwasher. It's the only practice I've worked in that's had a dishwasher.
David Hall: And one of the things I said is that like, first off, do not leave your coffee cups in the sink, put them in the dishwasher. And when the dishwasher's full, start the dishwasher. And if you show up, uh, empty the dishwasher. And I've had some people, no one with me currently, but I've had some people be like, I don't feel it's my job to empty the dishwasher.
David Hall: I'm a therapist. I'm like, and I'm like, you're part of the, you're one of the roommates. Mm-hmm. This is, but basically they, they had this idea that someone else, this, this needed to be the job of somebody else. That this was in your words, James kind of beneath them. Mm-hmm. And I've said like, look, this is.
David Hall: Ev, like, but that's
James Marland: the behavior of a team member. Yes. Like you're looking for people who wa look out for each other. Like, this'll show up. It's not about the dishes. Like, it's
David Hall: not about the No, it's not about the dishes. Dishes. It's, yeah. It, it, it's, it's about all the things that's connected to and just this mindset that like, because one of, uh, I shared office space with another practice at one point, and, uh, the principal of the other practice, uh, put the sign.
David Hall: Over the, the sink and said, when you leave the dishes in, in the sink, who do you think puts them away? The dish fairy. Like, and, but because of this whole thing, like, oh, but basically it's this like, you know, what I'm doing is more important and it's, it's even kind of a, I, uh, I worked with somebody once who, he had had a job as a, as a, a business manager for, uh, a physician group.
David Hall: One of the things that they had, which, uh, was, he had these physicians, a lot of 'em were surgeons, uh, er physicians that, um, wouldn't be up to date with their charting, but they had a very, kind of, their idea was like, I'm saving lives. I'm doing this. Like someone else can finish the paperwork. And they had this thing where if you, that you weren't paid, if your charting wasn't up to date.
David Hall: Talking about so many people being so like, put out by that, be like, you know, where's my, where's my paycheck? Yeah. It's like, well, you're, you're not up to date with my charting. It's like, well, I haven't had time for that or whatever. Like, I've got, basically, I'm out saving the world. And this is, and it was not to diminish that the fact that they are saving lives isn't important, but like, so is this other thing and it's part of the job.
James Marland: Yeah. I, I don't know where this fits, but. Um, when you don't complete your paperwork and the insurance comes and audit your paperwork, and they see that 20% of their clients didn't have their notes done, then they take back 20% of their Everything. Yeah. Everything. Not just your stuff. Everybody's stuff. So, You know, you're saving lives, but if you crash the company car, you know, if you crash the company, then nobody's gets helped.
James Marland: So do your notes and it
David Hall: Yeah, and it, yeah. Anyways, that's, that's a big deal. But anyway, but it just becomes the point of that's that's off the side. Yeah. Anyway. Well, but it, it becomes like, but I, you articulated something a few minutes ago, James. I think it's important cuz you said, you know, for me, I'm looking for team members and that's absolutely true.
David Hall: Mm-hmm. For someone who comes in and wants a paycheck for work. They're not a good hire for me. I don't have that sort of practice. If they want to be a part of a team, like, not just that word, but like they seek it out and that's clear in their behaviors. Like do they seek out collaboration? Do they seek out, you know, building relationship with their coworkers?
David Hall: Do they, you know, seem to enjoy being around? Those are people that are gonna thrive. And going back to the metaphor of the soil, That's the soil I have to offer. And part of when I'm, my hiring process is weaning people out is are you the right tree for the soil? Because it's a mutual responsibility. I feel that I've tried to develop a sense of more of that.
David Hall: You're not good for me if I bring you in, but also I'm not good for you. It's me hiring you. Yeah. I could kill you. Yeah. Me. I would, hiring you could be a great disservice for your career development. Yeah. And. How do I, uh, uh, articulate that, um, make that as clear as possible? And I've had, um, and when I've, one of the things I've learned from hires, if they're trying to talk me out of, if I'm, keep trying to give them a gentle no, cuz it's clear that like the soil and the plant don't match and they wanna fight it.
David Hall: That's even more of an indication. Cuz I'm like, if, if, if, like, if you're saying like, I'm determined to do this in spite of all the evidence. Then. Mm-hmm. That's not like that's a problem. And so, uh, What are some of your other tips in the, the process here? So,
James Marland: uh, just, just quickly, I think you gotta know what the, the right behaviors are for your, for your office.
James Marland: And you were, you were starting to like talk about the teamwork and the, the thriving in that type of environment. So you have to identify the behaviors that people need to thrive. You can't just like, take something from Indeed, which I've done in the past, and like a, a. A template job description and just post it and think you're gonna get the right people.
James Marland: So spend some time writing down the tasks that need to be done. Like what are the things that lead to, uh, um, uh, success in your office, and then what are the behaviors that get those tasks done? So if, uh, not can't, uh, seeing patients is probably high on the list, you know? Yeah. And so what are the behaviors of somebody that sees patients?
James Marland: You, you could probably list four or five of them. One is not canceling, two is being dependable. Three is keeping a, a good calendar. You have to have, you have to know those behaviors for what you want. Like write them down. Uh, identify them. If you don't know what they are, find an A player that you have.
James Marland: And see what they're doing. What is their quality and quantity of work? What are the reports they produce? What do they do? How do they get the results that they're supposed to do? Start there and do it. If you, if you're just a solo practice and you're either hiring a virtual assistant or another therapist, Ask a friend, you know, what are, what are your a player behaviors?
James Marland: You gotta know what the behaviors are. Mm-hmm. Uh, that's, that's tip number one. And tip number two, we've talked about it, is like, not, don't just know them. Like use them, take off the hat of the therapist and, you know, knock down the walls of confirmation bias and put your default to no and start, start reviewing things according to the behaviors.
James Marland: That you, you, you need, like, you have to have standards. Every other industry has standards. You know, your tax guy has standards. You're building y you know, the guy who does the, the foundation for your house has standards. Everything has standards. If you don't live according to standards, things break. So, Set the standards, have, use the standards, and then the three is just, uh, like filter root out the bad hires so that all you're left with is potentially good hires.
James Marland: And that's done through the resume process, the pre-screening. And then your, your, your interview questions need to be behavior based. You don't ask like, what would my, what would your boss say about you? Because you're asking people to. Make something up or back them into a corner. But what you're really trying to do is in this situation we have these situations at our job, this is what, uh, this is what might happen.
James Marland: How would you handle, or how have you handled a similar situation? So it's basically a three-part question. Um, a helpful lead in an open-ended beginning and then the behavior you're looking for cuz you're making it. Easy for the person who has the behavior to answer that question and hard for the person who doesn't have the behavior to answer that question.
James Marland: So, uh, for example, uh, for cash-based client practices, if you're hiring a virtual assistant, you might say you're helpful. Lead in is. So sometimes people want to use their insurance, but we don't take insurance at our practice. Then the open-ended is, tell me about a time when you, so, you know, tell me when you did this and then just, just describe what you want.
James Marland: Tell me about a time when you explained the benefits of a service, uh, the benefits of the service that didn't take insurance. Because the people who have done that before will know exactly what you want and how to do it. And the people who haven't done before, they're gonna say something like, well, I, I think I would, or, this is what I would do.
James Marland: And so if you ask enough of, if you know enough of the behaviors that you want, you ask enough of those questions. There's gonna be a gap. There's gonna be a, a big dividing line between the people who have those behaviors that you're looking for and the people who don't have those behaviors. And you're not hiding anything.
James Marland: You want people, you want people to know that they're doing a good job, and you want people to know that they might not have these skills. And you as somebody who hire you, definitely want to know these things. That, uh, this person has eight of the 10 behaviors that I'm looking for. I think I can train the other two.
James Marland: This is good, or this person has two. And, and I have no time to train the other eight. Mm-hmm. So, um, I think you gotta base everything on behavior because the best predictor of future behavior is recent past behavior in a similar situation. It doesn't work for everything, but for jobs, it's the best we have.
James Marland: It's not perfect, but that's what we got. So I would, I would really. Now nail down just the one, um, just the one thing is I would really narrow that, narrow down your behaviors. Like what, what behaviors contribute success. And then ask those, you know, build everything around that. Like build your resume review around the behaviors.
James Marland: If you know the behaviors, like if I said, where can you find teamwork on a resume? There's no wrong answer. David, where do you think you could find somebody who exemplifies teamwork on a resume? Mm.
David Hall: Um. I think some of it is, is when, are they highlighting activities or things that, that were clearly involving in collaboration?
David Hall: Yeah. You know, do they, do they, if they're talking, if, if they're showing their job history or the volunteer things they're listing or whatever it is, doesn't give me any indication of the enjoyment of where it's not just like capacity, like part of it for me is they have to like it. Yeah. And if you don't like it,
James Marland: so.
James Marland: So if under their accomplishments or maybe their job duties, they don't list anything about team. Like, I did this or I did, you know? Yeah. I mean, you do put a lot of eyes and resumes. It's just Sure. It's,
David Hall: it's not an issue, but like, is it, I'm looking at these settings and if, if time and time again it shows that this person is more of like a, uh, loan warrior mm-hmm.
David Hall: Sort of individual is like there are other situations that they can thrive in, just not mine.
James Marland: Right. Right. And, and you just gotta figure out, everybody's a little different. You gotta figure out what behaviors lead, you know, what's your mission, you know, what, what behaviors lead to that, the, the achievement of that mission.
James Marland: And then just be really clear about asking them. And then the, the side tip here is just ask the same questions every time. Mm-hmm. So you can, um, compare the same answers. Like even if you have group interviews, and this was in the book, uh, the effective hiring manager. Group interviews, uh, if you're interviewing multiple people, everybody asks the same questions.
James Marland: So when you compare, you're all comparing the answers. And people would think, oh, won't people get bored about that? Won't people stop answering the questions? And the good hires don't. And the bad hires do. Like, you can fool people for an hour, right? Mm-hmm. I think that's part of the problem. You can, you can fool people with good answers for an hour, but, um, You just ask the same, the same behavior interview questions, and then when you're comparing it, you, you can compare and you have a meeting and talk about, you know, why, why you would hire this person.
James Marland: You have eventually you have to make a decision. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, you have to decide what, what is the standards for that decision. And, um, you know, I would hire this person because they demonstrated it. You, you actually phrase it this way, if you're doing it in a group, I would hire this person because they demonstrated behavior A, B, C, and D.
James Marland: Mm-hmm. And, and uh, that's why I think they would make a good hire cuz you have to, you can't just say, I think, you know, I hope they would be a good hire or, you know, you just gotta have good reasons for it and behavior is the best predictor. I'm pretty strong on that because I've had some bad, I've just had some terrible hires that I should have had a, I should, like you should on yourself, but I should have had, uh, uh, seen the red flags and I didn't have the standards and it was painful.
James Marland: And that's why I am really passionate about helping people prevent, prevent scarring themselves more than they need to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. Um, so those were my, some of my tips. Any, uh, anything else you wanna say before we go to the one thing?
David Hall: I don't think so. Let's, so here's the one thing for me, which is, um, and I don't know if we've said this, we, we talked around it, I don't know if we've said this exactly, if faced with poor candidates, it is better in my belief, just not to hire.
David Hall: And to hire the wrong person. Mm-hmm. I, one of the things that have led me to justify people is I, I maybe even have the conscious thought, like, this may not be the best fit, but it's a warm body. And honestly, that's never served me ever, ever, ever, because I'm trying to solve for me, if it's, I'm trying to hire a therapist and it's like, well, I need, I need more therapists.
David Hall: It, it doesn't, it's better for me just to have an empty office. An empty spot than it is to have somebody that cuz it their work. It's it's work to take on somebody and to, to get them up to speed and then if they don't work out or they, it ends up being negative for the overall work experience and it's, it's just not worth it.
David Hall: It's the lost revenue is minuscule compared to the cost. Otherwise, emotionally, if I'm trying to find like somebody to run my social media, I can't find anybody. That's good. Mm-hmm. Then I guess I'm still running my social media and even if I don't like doing it, and even if like it's, I'm not doing well, you, you will, it, it's, it's not that like you being stuck with the job is a good answer, but it is far better than hiring the wrong person.
David Hall: And I don't wanna be, I guess, too absolute in it. Certain things require less skillsets, you know? Um, if I hire somebody to mow my lawn and, and their job is, is, you know, the consequences of a poorly cut lawn is, is gonna be less significant to me in my life, then other things. But I could say specifically for practices, if it's just like, well, I want to, I wanna grow the group practice, but I'm not finding good candidates.
David Hall: You know what, then it's not time to grow. Um, grow slow and it, it's, it's, or be willing to grow slow. Um, yeah. Is, uh,
James Marland: so yeah. Great. Your, your, your lawn mowing example made me think of my, my unc or, uh, Lori. My, my, uh, wife's brother hired somebody to mow the lawn and the, the deck wasn't, um, level and he chopped every up and down.
James Marland: He chopped holes in the lawn with the blade that, um, Messed it up. So there are people who can do a really bad job going long anyways. Anyway, it just made me laugh. Yeah. Um, cuz he was like, didn't you? No. Didn't you, didn't you feel it? Didn't you see it? Anyway? Okay. So my one thing, it's probably just the same as your, your one thing.
James Marland: It's, it's that if, if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. Mm-hmm. Because you, you can't. You can't overestimate the pain of the wrong hire, like mm-hmm. That is, that is just something we think we can do. I hope it'll get better. I think I'm good. I'm great at teaching people and then you end up with somebody who makes you cry at night or like, grit your teeth for the pain you're gonna have to do in the morning mm-hmm.
James Marland: Is just not worth it. So, uh, look, look, look for those red flags. Make your default? No, because it's easy to hire somebody, but it's super hard to fire somebody. So just mm-hmm. Just make your default. No. And look for the people who are the great fit that will thrive in your company. So that's, that's it.
James Marland: Mm-hmm. Well, thanks David for a great episode. Mm-hmm. Thank you James. Uh, this is James, uh, with Dr. David Hall. Uh, thank you for joining us. Take those small steps that lead to big growth. We will see you next time.
James Marland: Thank you for listening to the scaling therapy practice I hope you enjoyed the show I want to remind you that the content shared today is for general information and entertainment purposes only It shouldn't be considered as legal or tax advice If you need a professional advice in those areas please consult with a licensed attorney or accountant but thank you so much for listening The scaling therapy practice is part of the psych craft network
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