STP 96
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[00:00:00] Nancy: And the other thing we tend to do is compare our behind the scenes to other people's highlight reel. You know, we're not seeing other people's messy floor on Instagram. You know, we're seeing their carefully curated image. We don't see the, the stuff that's behind the scenes, you know, you're, you're seeing their eye level stuff.
[00:00:22] Nancy: You don't see their messy floor. You have no idea that they have a messy floor too.
[00:00:29] Microphone (Yeti Classic) & Logitech BRIO: Are you looking for ways to diversify your income? In January, I'm starting a cohort of therapists to start creating online content, to increase your impact, influence, and income.
[00:00:42] Microphone (Yeti Classic) & Logitech BRIO: Visit course creation, studio.com and look for resources on starting your own online course today. Hey, Scaling Therapy Practice fans. It's Nancy Norbeck from Follow Your Curiosity. It's the [00:01:00] podcast where we explore guests creative journeys and what they've learned along the way. And I also offer creativity tips to help you get unstuck and stay that way. Check out my November 3rd, 2024 episode with Lucinda Sage Midgordon, where we talk about why you should make bad art.
[00:01:16] You are listening to Scaling Therapy Practice. Here's your host, James Marland.
[00:01:21] James Marland: Hello and welcome back to the Scaling Therapy Practice. This is the show where we empower mission driven leaders to launch life changing online courses. I'm your host, James Marland, and today I have a very special guest. It's Nancy Norbeck. Nancy Norbeck is a master's certified Kaizen Muse creativity coach.
[00:01:46] James Marland: And she hosts follow your curiosity podcast and I got, uh, I started recognizing her noticing her when she's talking about dealing [00:02:00] with perfectionism and getting over that tendency to rework rehash. Redo something 99 times, but never get it fully pushed out the door. If you've listened to the podcast, you know, that's something I've dealt with.
[00:02:15] James Marland: So I'm really happy to learn from Nancy's wisdom. Hey, Nancy, welcome to the show.
[00:02:20] Nancy: so much for having me, James.
[00:02:22] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: So I like to start out with a little bit of history because not everybody starts out creating online courses and doing passive income, normally have a life before what we're doing now. So what, what, what's your story? How did you, uh, get started? Get us up to the point where you said, you know what? Maybe I should lead an online course.
[00:02:42] Nancy: Well, I'll try to give you the short version. I,
[00:02:46] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: I know.
[00:02:48] Nancy: I actually started my, my career such as it is, was, um, doing tech support. And that was a good while back. And then, you know, [00:03:00] that wasn't what I, Studied as an undergrad. I was an English major, but I was doing technical writing and then I ended up doing tech support.
[00:03:06] Nancy: And eventually I said, you know, I'd kind of like to use my English degree. So I was doing tech support at a school and I said, hi, could I, you know, do some teaching? And so they let me switch from teaching tech classes to teaching English as a second language classes, which I really, really loved. And when that dried up, During the Great Recession, I landed in editing and proofreading in a fundraising office.
[00:03:39] Nancy: And, you know, it was one of those things where I discovered, you know, you can take the teacher out of the classroom, but you can't really take the classroom out of the teacher. And I discovered coaching, which is a lot like teaching, but without parents and report cards and detention and all the stuff.
[00:03:55] Nancy: stuff that people don't like about teaching. So I [00:04:00] started creating my own courses on a smaller scale and teaching them back in the days before Zoom when we had phone conference lines. And I really, really liked that, but they were small and I didn't really know how to make them any bigger or keep doing them on a regular basis.
[00:04:18] Nancy: And I had this day gig. And so that was really, really fun. Kind of what was occupying my time and these days I finally decided to take the leap and do it on a bigger scale and in the meantime I started the podcast trying to get people doing their creative stuff and not letting things like perfectionism get in their way. So, so that's the short answer to the question. You can feel free to have me expand on that anywhere you like.
[00:04:45] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Yeah. So 1 of your 1 of your main topics is perfectionism. And if you're listening to this show, you might have heard me talk about that a little bit. Before, but it's often something creative types or analytical [00:05:00] types suffer with, you know, we want to get it right. Um, I think part of me, part of me is I don't like wasting time or money.
[00:05:11] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: So if I'm going to release something, I want to release it well, and then I end up not releasing it at all, like weeks turn into months. So, uh, can you talk about that process? Why do people get stuck in that perfectionism trap?
[00:05:27] Nancy: We get stuck in the perfectionism trap because it's drilled into us from the time we're kids. You know, I mean, one of the things that immediately comes into my head is like, when you learn penmanship in school, you know, they give you the little template and you're supposed to trace the template. And why do they do that?
[00:05:44] Nancy: Well, because it's easy, right? The easy way to learn to form letters is to trace over somebody else's, but then you're, you know, At least in my school, they hung them all on the wall and they put stickers next to the ones that were the closest to the template. [00:06:00] And so you were comparing yours to everybody else's and you immediately got the sense that the ones that were closest to perfect were the better ones. And if yours weren't closest to perfect, you weren't good enough. Stuff like
[00:06:13] Nancy: that happens everywhere. And even now, as adults, we don't have teachers putting stickers next to the ones that are better. No, no, we have Instagram. That's constantly showing us that, you know, your friends and neighbors have more perfect lives than you do, which is all a lie, because it's just for show.
[00:06:31] Nancy: It's just for show. But it's hard not to believe it. And the thing is, I'll tell you the thing that surprised me the most about perfectionism when I was in coach training, because I was convinced that I was not a perfectionist. Why? Because a lot of creatives are messy people. Right? We've got paints and papers and stuff all over the place.
[00:06:53] Nancy: It kind of tends to come with the territory.
[00:06:57] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: You can't see my floor. It [00:07:00] went in the camera here, but I have stuff everywhere. I organize in piles right in front of me. I have my note cards that I wrote out over here down here. I have my notebook. Should it be on a shelf somewhere? Neatly organized? Yeah, but I'm uh, I'm uh, I'm I'm in that messy pile. If I don't see it, I don't know it's there type of
[00:07:20] Nancy: Exactly. And so I had let myself off the perfectionism hook because I was convinced that if I was a perfectionist, you know, all of the, all the labels on all of the cans in my kitchen would be organized by color and arranged, you know, in a way that So that they all faced in the same direction, because to me, that's what perfectionism meant. And the coach who was assigned to me for coach training said to me one day, Are there things that you don't start because you're convinced that they will never be good enough?
[00:07:50] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Ooh, what?
[00:07:53] Nancy: Oh, because she said, that's perfectionism. And I went, Oh, I'm a perfectionist.[00:08:00]
[00:08:01] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: No, that, that makes a lot of sense. There's sometimes I, I sit down on my computer knowing I need to do something, but I end up getting like do an email or like even today, I needed to send out some emails that I, for, for clients. And I wasn't exactly sure how to do it. I wanted to get it right. I felt like they were important to me.
[00:08:23] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: So instead, I bought a program to make, to, uh, to help me schedule these appointments instead of making the emails myself. Like that is a perfectionist trap. I didn't realize it as perfectionism, but that's like, I procrastinated doing something else useful
[00:08:45] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: because I wasn't, I wanted to be perfect in something else.
[00:08:49] Nancy: Yeah.
[00:08:49] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: And that, that probably happens more than I, uh, realize.
[00:08:52] Nancy: And I think it happens to more people than most people realize. I think there are very few people who have [00:09:00] managed to completely escape perfectionism because we think of it the way I was thinking it. You know, that, that you would be almost like perfect. pathologically perfectionist, but that's not how it shows up for a lot of us.
[00:09:13] Nancy: A lot of us, it's just, I don't have the right things. I need the right paintbrush. I need the right paint. I don't have the right canvas. I don't have, you know, I don't have the right word processor. I've answered questions on Quora for a couple of years. I haven't really done it lately, but I've literally had people ask questions about how many words a chapter should be.
[00:09:31] Nancy: I don't know. Every chapter is different. Don't get hung up on how many words a chapter should be. Just write the chapter. But that all of that kind of stuff, you know, what's the right word processor to use? Which one do you like? That's the right word processor to use. All of that is perfectionism rearing its ugly head because we think we have to get hung up on that stuff and we don't. So anything that like that that's popping up and the problem is, you know, we don't want to [00:10:00] label ourselves that way because it feels judgmental. Oh, you're a perfectionist. But if you don't. label it that way. You don't have any awareness of it, and if you don't have the awareness of it, you can't do anything about it.
[00:10:15] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: So, uh, before we get into some tips on that, you did say something that I just want to highlight the comparison trap and just how
[00:10:23] Nancy: Mm hmm. Comparison.
[00:10:27] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: in your, in your view, why is comparison bad and what, what can you do about it?
[00:10:38] Nancy: I'm not sure anymore if I came up with this or if I heard it from somebody else, but I always think of comparison is the thief of joy because You know, every, every single one of us is different. Every single one of us brings something unique to the table. And we all have heard this and we all kind of tend to roll our eyes and say, yeah, that's a cliche, but it's a cliche because it's true. [00:11:00] And so if we think that we have to be like everybody else, we deny what's unique and special about ourselves. And it's also a form of self rejection. Self rejection. Because we're more interested in what's great about somebody else than we are in what's great about us.
[00:11:21] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: You don't
[00:11:22] Nancy: You don't even see it.
[00:11:24] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Uh, it reminds me of a story I recently was reading in the book, the gap in the game it's by, um, Benjamin Harding and I'm forgetting the other guy's name. It's, it's uh, they did 10x is easier and 2x the gap in the game, who not how, those types of books. And they tell a story about going on a trip with their kids and one of the meals that they got had a cookie in it and so they divided the cookie up and everybody got a piece of the cookie and one kid ate their cookie and then was like [00:12:00] upset because.
[00:12:01] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: That he felt like somebody else had a bigger cookie, and now he was more upset after he had a cookie than before he had a cookie, because he was comparing himself to what other people had, and I feel like that's such a big trap when we look at, we don't recognize, we, we have good things, and when we compare ourselves to what other people have, we often become more upset Then if we had nothing to begin with, it's just, uh, something I'm realizing in my life that I, I often fall into that comparison trap where I'm like, Oh, I wish I had more clients, or I wish I had a bigger audience, or I wish I had bigger email lists or, or anything like that.
[00:12:44] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: I wish I had more podcast downloads, all the, all those measures where we look at other people on the wall, you know, their, their handwriting on the wall with stickers on it. And we wish we had those things. Well, in actuality. You're, you're so much [00:13:00] further along than you used to be. Like, if you looked at yourself from where you started.
[00:13:04] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: With no clients, no podcasts, no, no downloads, no stickers, you know, then you, you would realize you're in a much better place, but we look at what we don't have instead of what we have. And I think that's really
[00:13:20] Nancy: We do. And the other thing we tend to do is compare our behind the scenes to other people's highlight reel. You know, we're not seeing other people's messy floor on Instagram. You know, we're seeing their carefully curated image. We don't see the, the stuff that's behind the scenes, you know, you're, you're seeing their eye level stuff.
[00:13:42] Nancy: You don't see their messy floor. You have no idea that they have a messy floor too. Sure.
[00:13:49] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Great, great point. Um, so, uh, we talked in the pre show about maybe talking over some tips or ways to deal with some of this perfectionism. Do you [00:14:00] have a. Uh, some things or tips you want to share with the audience about how to change their mindset or overcome some of the 10 perfectionism tendencies.
[00:14:09] Nancy: Perfectionism is, is tricky, especially, especially if you don't want to recognize it. That's honestly the first thing that I would recommend. You really need to just step back and take a breath and, and be honest with yourself, which is hard. Yeah. And I'm not going to sugarcoat it because it's not the easiest thing in the world.
[00:14:31] Nancy: But you know, you want to be nice to yourself about it and recognize that you are not alone. Perfectionism is like the most normal thing ever, especially these days. Because again, everybody's looking at Instagram. Everybody's got it. I think there are probably some exceptions to that rule, but they are so rare.
[00:14:49] Nancy: So everybody's got it. I mean, you can even see it in kids. I used to say that kids were immune. But I watched my nephew six years ago at Christmas have an [00:15:00] absolute meltdown because the thing that he was drawing a picture of wasn't perfect enough. And I was like, okay, it sets in way earlier than I thought. So everybody's got it. It is not just you. And the first thing to do is to have compassion for yourself because you're not alone. It's a very, very human thing. And And so just recognize this is, this is normal and it's okay. And if you can just be 5 percent more okay with that. And if 5 percent seems too big, try 3%. And if that's too big, try 1%. And just breathe with it and just, just say, okay. It's it's all right. And a lot of the time, the things that we get hung up on, I mean, I worked as an editor and a proofreader. Does it really matter if the apostrophe is curly or not? Does it really make a difference? Will [00:16:00] the world actually end?
[00:16:01] Nancy: A lot of the things that we get hung up on. don't actually matter. So picking your battles is part of it.
[00:16:09] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: You made me think of, uh, creating PowerPoints that people will see for 10 seconds and then like, and just like finding, going through hundreds of pictures to find the exact right one where I found one 10 seconds in and I'm like, oh, that's good. And then I just look for another 30 minutes.
[00:16:32] Nancy: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't help that once you see something like that, you can't not see it,
[00:16:37] Nancy: but you are one of a million other people who did that same thing that day,
[00:16:43] Nancy: you know? And, and that's, it's the, you know, nobody is setting off a nuclear bomb by accident because of that one tiny little thing. If, if you're a nuclear engineer, obviously you have a degree of precision to live up to that most of the rest of us don't.
[00:16:59] Nancy: But [00:17:00] if you're not, it's okay,
[00:17:04] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Yeah. Often you're, you're 80 percent is somebody else's 100%.
[00:17:08] Nancy: right? But another thing is, is just to try, you know, part of what gets to us about perfectionism is that we have an overactive inner critic and it's the inner critic and the voice of the inner critic that. is so difficult to bear. It's not the mistake itself. It's what we tell ourselves about it. So there are two things to try to deal with the inner critic.
[00:17:34] Nancy: One is to write down the stuff that the inner critic is telling you, because when you get it out of your head and onto a piece of paper, it's much easier to see that it's not actually you. And it can be really, really, really satisfying to take that piece of paper and crumple it up and throw across the room.
[00:17:53] Nancy: Or if you're able to, to set it on fire, if you can do it safely, anything like that. Just be like, yeah, this isn't [00:18:00] me and I'm going to get rid of it. It's not going to permanently silence your inner critic, but it'll help. You know, especially if you do it over time. The other thing is deliberately sit down and say, I'm going to do a thing badly. You know, the, the thing that we're all told as kids is anything worth doing is worth doing well. But what
[00:18:23] Nancy: if it's just as true that anything that's worth doing is worth doing badly. And you say, I'm going to sit down and write a terrible poem. First of all, you'll be surprised at how difficult it is to get yourself to deliberately write a terrible poem. But what you'll also discover is that your inner critic shuts up because it has nothing to do. Because you're not trying to write a perfect poem, so it can't nitpick what you're doing. And it leaves you alone.
[00:18:49] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Right. Yeah. With, uh, you're, you're speaking a lot to me about some of my, my journey, because when I 1st started, uh, I was [00:19:00] like stuck in the comparison trap listening to the negative thoughts like you don't have any clients. You don't have an email list. Why would somebody download your stuff? Why would somebody listen to your podcast?
[00:19:13] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Why would somebody buy your course? So I did what you said. And, um, I think I got this exercise from a Mike Michalowicz book, uh, who does Profit First and a bunch of other books, and, um, The Pumpkin Plan is one that I like from him. Anyways, he said, on one side, write those negative thoughts, and then on the other side, reframe the thought.
[00:19:34] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: So, if you say, why, uh, I have no I have nobody on my email list to sell anything to the, the reframe. That's the negative thought. The reframe is, well, everybody starts with nobody on their list. It's such a freeing thought though, to like, instead of live and stew in your own negativity, to [00:20:00] reframe it with some positive thoughts.
[00:20:02] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: And the thing about, oh, I'm going to write a bad poem, you know, most of the time, the first time we try something, it's often our worst time we've done it. Yeah, it's not gonna be the best. Uh, and so that keeps us from doing it. But when we don't do those things, we don't learn the lessons that we need to do from doing it poorly.
[00:20:27] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Um, somebody said, make more mistakes. I can't remember who it was. It was like, make more mistakes. If you're not making mistakes, you're not trying hard enough. And, uh, I love how you're helping us reframe that inner critic, uh, to reframe our mistakes are part of our success. You have to
[00:20:47] Nancy: If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning anything.
[00:20:53] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Um, so, uh, those were, I love that part. We talked about tips, uh, and, and you said, [00:21:00] so be, uh, step back, take a breath, be honest with yourself. You're not alone deal with the inner critic. You have another, uh, tip for us.
[00:21:11] Nancy: Let's see. Something easy. You know, The other thing you can do with that list of stuff from your inner critic is to really blow it out of proportion. Because,
[00:21:23] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: What do you mean
[00:21:24] Nancy: you know, like if, if there's something, and, and obviously like the inner critic stuff can get really, depending on your experience, inner critic stuff is, is usually the voices that you picked up as a kid. And I'm realizing lately that a lot of those, you know, people say that they're like the voices of your parents and whatever, and they are, but I think that we. We actually install them ourselves preemptively because we're trying to keep from hearing the negative voices from our parents. So we've, in a twisted way, we've kind of installed them as a protective thing, [00:22:00] which is, anyway, it's very twisted, but it makes sense. But you know, they're trying to help us, but they're not, they're keeping us from doing the stuff that we want to do. So you don't, you know, if there's really, really dark, icky stuff in there, you got to be careful with it. And I know I'm talking to an audience of therapists, so I'm kind of preaching to the choir here.
[00:22:21] Nancy: But some of the stuff that, that we pick up through those voices that turns into our inner critic is really kind of ridiculous. When you actually start. looking at it and put it under a microscope. So if somebody told you something that was completely crazy, you can just kind of blow it out of proportion and you really start to see how silly it is. And if you get to that point where you can actually laugh at it, that really neutralizes the effect of it. And then, you know, it's easier to laugh at it when you hear it on a regular basis, when you haven't blown it up and you can just kind of go, yeah, whatever [00:23:00] I'm going to go do. do my own thing, which, you know, having a comeback like that in place is also, you know, regardless of whether you blow it up or not, and you just kind of go, yeah, so what I'm going to do it anyhow is a great technique too.
[00:23:15] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Do you have an example? Like, um, let's see. What if, let's go back to my email example. Like, I like, oh, I'm going to write this email, but it's, it's, I don't know the, I don't have the words to say, or I'm, what's a negative thing? I'm going to, um, use bad grammar or something. That's harder to do now with Grammarly installed, but still.
[00:23:44] Nancy: Yeah.
[00:23:45] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: I pay for Grammarly because I am. Not the best at that, but
[00:23:49] Nancy: well, so if you're hearing something like, you know, I'm going to write the worst email ever because my grammar is going to be terrible and my grammar is going to be so bad that, you know, [00:24:00] This other person is going to read my email and they're going to misinterpret it and because they misinterpret it, you know, someone is going to, going to do something completely the opposite of what I said. You know, they're, they're, they're going to call someone and, and I don't know, I'm totally making this up off of the top of my head
[00:24:20] Nancy: here, right? They're going to call someone and that person is going to. Pick up the phone and, and call the White House and there will be an international crisis
[00:24:29] Nancy: because of my email, you know, like blowing it completely
[00:24:33] Nancy: out of proportion so that it's totally absurd. Yeah. So That there's no
[00:24:39] Nancy: question that obviously that's not going to happen.
[00:24:42] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: right. Yeah. What's the worst case scenario? They might ask me a question. What do
[00:24:48] Nancy: Yeah, we'd say, Could you clarify this piece here? And you go, Oh, yeah, that didn't really
[00:24:52] Nancy: make
[00:24:52] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: I have to send a second
[00:24:53] Nancy: Let me try that
[00:24:54] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. So these are great tips for dealing with [00:25:00] perfectionism. Um, uh, I know, uh, you have a, it. Do you have more resources for this?
[00:25:07] Nancy: do. I'm actually offering a course called Make Bad Art. And,
[00:25:13] Nancy: and it's inspired literally by the idea of deliberately sitting down and thinking. And making bad art, you know, writing the bad poem, doing a left handed drawing that you fully expect will be terrible. I did this a year or two ago and I thought, you know, I can't draw right handed. So what on earth did I think was going to come out of drawing left handed? But because I had no expectations, which is also part of what happens when you deliberately make bad art. I actually drew a better thing than I probably would have drawn with my right hand. I was blown away. And so this is the other thing that tends to happen when you make bad art.
[00:25:54] Nancy: You know, you, you have to make bad art in order to make good art. The good art sneaks out with the [00:26:00] bad art because your inner critic shuts up. And so it allows the good art to come out. the trick becomes not psyching yourself into saying, Oh, I'm going to go make some bad art in the hope that the good art comes out because then all of the inner critique kind of stuff starts to sneak back in. But yeah, it's a six week program that is designed to help you actually get into that mindset that liberates you from worrying about self judgment and criticism and moving you into a more self compassionate place where you can play and have fun. I mean, that's really the whole, the whole idea. If you get into that spot, all sorts of amazing things can happen.
[00:26:44] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: So it sounds like you're using art to help people change their mindset.
[00:26:50] Nancy: It's, it's an interesting overlap because,
[00:26:53] Nancy: you know, when you do more creativity, you have more energy, you have more of a playful mindset anyway. [00:27:00] And so, you know, which came first, the chicken or the egg. And so it's a, it's a great way to get there from either direction.
[00:27:10] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Is this for artists? Or can anybody take
[00:27:13] Nancy: can come play.
[00:27:16] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Because I really, I really do see the overlap. Like, if somebody's, let's say they're the perfectionist about, you know. They're sometimes therapists when they want to to expand. I help I help them do online courses, but there's other ways to expand hiring people, buying buildings, selling your practice, anything, anything that helps you earn money.
[00:27:40] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: But all of them are outside the comfort zone and you have to deal with your negative critic when you go outside that comfort zone. So what if you took a class like, you know, how to make bad art to teach you the skills of being okay. With not being perfect, I can really see that as a benefit to [00:28:00] people who, who might want to try.
[00:28:03] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: You know something new that is Going to teach them a mindset and probably be a little bit fun fun along the way, too
[00:28:10] Nancy: Yeah, and it's easier in a group, especially if
[00:28:14] Nancy: you're in an environment, you know, working as an editor and proofreader by definition is a very perfectionistic job. So if you're in a situation like that and you really want to introduce less perfectionism into your life, it's really tough to do it on your own. But even if you're not, it's helpful to do it in a group, because again, that sense of being alone is really hard to overcome when you are effectively on your own. It's so much easier in a group, even if it's a small virtual group, because you know you've got kindred spirits who are there with you.
[00:28:50] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Awesome. Thanks. Thanks so much for sharing that. Thanks for spreading the message about um fighting perfectionism and the comparison trap So [00:29:00] where can people find you? Do you have email facebook? Uh, what uh, or web page? What where can people find you on the internet?
[00:29:08] Nancy: So my website is fycuriosity. com. It's short for follow your curiosity. And I have a sub stack that's fycuriosity. substack. com. And I'll send you a link for the, uh, Make bad art page. It's a little probably easier for people to find that that way. And I'm on Instagram. I'm on what's left of Twitter, sort of, kind of, um, I'm on Blue Sky, too, as FY Curiosity.
[00:29:38] Nancy: I'm pretty much FY Curiosity everywhere I could get it. So yeah,
[00:29:42] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: I'll definitely put those in the the show notes Any, uh, final encouragement for our audience before we go today?
[00:29:52] Nancy: just know that, you know, if you're dealing with perfectionism, you're not alone. I think that's the biggest thing to remember is you're not alone. [00:30:00] And you know, it's, it's insidious, but it's not, It's not impossible to put chinks in its armor.
[00:30:10] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: Awesome. There is hope. There is hope. Nancy, thanks so much for being on the show. I appreciated our conversation
[00:30:17] Nancy: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:30:19] james_1_10-24-2024_130551: All right, listeners, uh, you, you heard it here. It's time to overcome some of your perfectionism tendency and there is support for you. Uh, thanks so much for listening to the show. It's now time to go put your mission in motion.
