STP 89 James and Bob
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[00:00:00]
James Marland: Bob Vedder.
Bob Vetter: Yes.
James Marland: Bob Vedder. Okay. Good to get the name. Right. All right. So 1, 2, 3. Hello, this is James Marland with the Scaling Therapy Practice. This is the show where we empower mission driven leaders to launch life changing online courses. I'm here with my new friend Bob Vetter. Uh, Bob and I met in the ACES program for Mayorstee. We both develop online courses and he has a really cool story. Bob, welcome to the show.
Bob Vetter: Thank you, James. Nice to be here.
James Marland: So Bob, can you, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself? What's your background?
Bob Vetter: Sure. So my academic background is as a cultural anthropologist. So I grew up in New York. I did my [00:01:00] undergraduate degree at the State University of New York at Oneonta. And then because of a curious twist of fate, too long of a story for this, um, I found myself in graduate school at the University of Oklahoma, also in the anthropology department.
While I was there, uh, My area of interest was the intersection of healing and spirituality. And I was really interested in Asian cultures, but since I found myself in Oklahoma, in the middle of
James Marland: hmm.
Bob Vetter: what's called Indian country, um, with 39 different tribes represented within the state, I thought I would do an interim, like just a temporary little project on the native Americans that were living there, the Southern Plains tribes.
I didn't know that it would actually change the trajectory of my entire life. Um, but I. I received a master's degree there. I did my field work with, um, the Comanche people and then eventually went on to the [00:02:00] Kiowas and Cheyenne and a number of other tribes. And in the process, I was adopted into a family by an old man named Oliver Pataponi, who was the last medicine man of his tribe.
I finished up graduate school there with also a secondary interest in another healing practice called curanderismo, which is the traditional medicine of Mesoamerica, including Mexico. So I had a lifelong interest in where those two intersected. And then I went on to create an educational travel program that would take Travelers with me into Oklahoma and eventually other parts of Indian country, including South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Wisconsin, upstate New York, all over, and eventually began another branch of that business working in schools, doing a museum based program there.
But the [00:03:00] part that we're really here to talk about today is the healing practice that came out of all that. And I can either go directly into that or I can wait for you to feed me another question, James.
James Marland: uh, just, uh, it sounds like a really rich background though, right? Doing, doing, um, taking people around and sharing their story, because I have a lot of interest in that sort of, like, history, because I don't, I grew up in upstate New York, so I heard a lot of Indian names, like all the lakes and stuff, I think, were named Indian names. grew up near the Finger Lakes, so, um, near Auburn, New York. And just, you know, it was, the history was there. I just didn't know anything about it. And so it sounds like you were able to expand people's knowledge about just the history of what, what went on in our country. So
Bob Vetter: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I found myself there in, um, Oklahoma, which was Indian [00:04:00] territory in the earlier on in the 1800s, it was an area that was set aside that nobody really wanted at the time to move tribes from all over the United States, including, interestingly enough, upstate New York. And at one time, there were 67 different tribes in what we now know as Oklahoma.
So it became a place. For all of these tribes, although not, uh, where most for most of them, it wasn't where they originally had been living.
James Marland: you started out in cultural anthropology and how I met you is we were taking a course on creating online courses and businesses for people. So how did you get from there to here?
Bob Vetter: Yeah. So let me, let me do a little bit of, uh, create a little bit of a bridge of understanding. So, so I went from, uh, I told you about having created the, um, educational travel programs that I did for quite a few years, [00:05:00] I had an interest in which originally was an academic one. Um, but. Again, a longer story that I won't go into, but I joined a chapter of the Native American church, uh, uh, one of the tribes in Oklahoma and I had to go somewhere to, um, be there for an annual ceremony.
So I went to South Texas where they go to gather medicine every year. And while I was there, I remembered, oh yeah, I was going to do some field work in San Antonio. And that was how I met my first teacher. And she became my first teacher of a number of teachers, both in the United States and in Mexico.
Where I learned curanderismo, which turned out to be the core of the healing technology that I would eventually come to use. And as an anthropologist, I've been fascinated with [00:06:00] cross cultural studies, so I've looked at healing systems from all over the world. But curanderismo created for me a very easy to understand, Easy to manage way of healing.
And there are two things that are interrelated. One is called platica, which literally means the heart to heart talk, but it's the
James Marland: Mm.
Bob Vetter: way of sacred listening
James Marland: Mm.
Bob Vetter: in this tradition. And, you know, therapists, which I gather are the bulk of who you are speaking to will recognize some of what goes on in curanderismo.
One of my teachers. was Elena Avila, who was not only a curandera from Mexico, but in living in the United States, she had become a psychiatric nurse and applied a lot of the principles of Western based psychotherapy into traditional Mesoamerican or Mexican medicine. [00:07:00] So she taught me platica in a deeper way than anyone else did.
Platica is connected with something called limpia. Limpia is taking the different I guess you could say symbols that come up in the platica and applying it ceremonially to create changes in that person, whether it's the mind, the body, the spirit, the emotions, all of which are interconnected. So I came to study all of this.
I eventually became a Temascalero. So Temascal is the, uh, Mesoamerican version of the sweat lodge that some people might be familiar with from North American Native people. So the Temascal became, uh, A way for me to build community here where I live in New York, and that was important in creating the base.
Now that now I'll kind of make the transition to talk about the business side of it. So [00:08:00] when I had I had been running sweat lodges up until then, I. received the permission to do North American sweat lodge from my adopted Cheyenne father while he was alive. He passed that on to me. So I had been doing that, but not publicly.
That was just by invitation. And A lot of what I learned on the spiritual and ceremonial side of Native American teachings was not something that I ever did publicly, and the reason is those teachings are really kind of reserved for family relations and in a non commercial way. environment. The big difference in learning Curanderismo is that the teachers that I learned from, both in the United States and in Mexico, were used to dealing with, uh, the public.
They had no problem. They passed these things on to me with, along [00:09:00] with the permission to do things in a more public way. So when I opened my Temascal, To the public in what is called a community Temescal. That means that it really belongs to the community. I'm there to facilitate it. That was what really started to create a community here where I live, which would eventually become the key to the next step, which was developing a business.
But I just wanted to stop at that point and pause there for a moment.
James Marland: So, it started out not as an online offering, but as a community resource or a community business to help people with their healing using your, I can't get the words right, but your, your, your, yeah. What does that word mean again?
Bob Vetter: It literally means house of vapor in the Nahuatl language for the people who you might know as the Aztecs, [00:10:00] um, probably better known as the Mexica, but in their language, the word Temazcal means house of vapor.
James Marland: And I think a lot of Therapists could probably or relate to your to your story because They've taken they've they've learned their skills from other people and they opened a community business to help the community heal with their services So there that's a lot. That's how a lot of people start out They're just helping the community serving them doing Doing the things that they know how to do, helping the people that help.
So, um, so now, now keep, uh, keep, keep moving us along in the story. Um, So
Bob Vetter: to this, and that is that, um, I also share the, [00:11:00] the common. Today, common understanding of Jung's archetype of the wounded healer. Because, you know, at the same time that I was building community and working with other people, of course, I was in the process working on myself.
So I had a number of apprentices in Curanderismo. I was learning about other healing methods from all over. Um, and at one point. I started to have a trickle of people who were coming in for one on one sessions with me, and that built over the course of time, over the years, some of the people who came to Temescal.
became people who wanted to do one on one work. And, and initially it was very often just a one and done. Somebody would come to see me once for a limpia, meaning a spiritual cleansing. They would feel [00:12:00] better and they would walk away. Over the course of time, I developed more and more tools that went along with it and took those one and dones and made it into a longer course.
of interactive work. Eventually, I came to view myself as a soul coach and a healer. And of course, by healer, I don't mean that that I have a magic wand, but I can help to facilitate someone else in their self healing. I think that's an important distinction. The thing that changed everything for me, honestly, was COVID.
And the reason that it changed everything for me is all of a sudden I found myself with a lot of time on my hands because my my other business in going into schools and doing the work with students. was put completely on hold during lockdown. So I used that [00:13:00] time to develop, um, my teaching ability and to, to meet one on one with people on zoom and quite a few of the people who became my student.
Well, let me, let me back up and explain how people came to me as students. My initial offering was a networking approach through the people who I had come to know as friends and people who were coming to Temescal, and initially I offered all of my online course services for free. And I said, look, I, you know, I'm not charging anything for this.
The only thing that I'm going to ask is that maybe after we've gone on for some time, if this is a value to you, you might write a testimonial for me. And that was honestly all I got out of it for some time. Now, a number of those people. [00:14:00] Went from just being students online to being one on one clients with me.
So they did pay for that, but all of the group work was absolutely free for, I don't know, the first year or two. I, I'm, I don't have the time exactly here, but, uh, from there I went on, I transitioned to a second phase and that was honestly initiated by some of the students who had been in the class for quite some time.
And they felt that the people who were coming should Make donations. So it was really that they're prompting that that led me to it. And I, I allow them to be the ones to talk to the other students and say, you know, we, we think that there should be some donation made. Periodically once a month, once every few months, however you want to do it, but there should be an exchange of energy, which really makes sense from a, from a healing [00:15:00] standpoint anyway, that really there shouldn't be just a one direction movement of energy.
So they began by, uh, paying in donations whenever they wanted another phase after that, Was to really step up the program and that's where we are now. I'm in a one year cohort where I have a, an auto generated email that goes out to everybody once a month that says, uh, you know, it's time to make your monthly donation.
And that will be what you pay is up to you. It should be based on two things. Number one, the value that you feel that you receive from being in this class and working with me. And secondly, what you're able to pay. And people have been generous with it, with what they do, with what they send. Now, [00:16:00] my next version of this Is going to be a course like that offered for the general public where there will be a specific cost attached to it.
James Marland: working through, so, so thinking through the, the, the development of the course, you were offering something of value that people wanted. You were, what problem, I don't know if you think about it in these terms, we do now because we're taking these courses, but what problem were you solving for them that they, they wanted to come to your course?
Mm
Bob Vetter: well, many of the people who are in the class are already healers in one way or another. I mean, I have acupuncturists, massage therapists, psychotherapists. Um, people in other professions that you might not even think of as a helping or healing profession, [00:17:00] but in our wider understanding it is. And all of them, what they share in common is a desire to work on themselves, to be healed, and to expand their ability as healers.
So, both of those are addressed in the class as we do it. Um, and both of them, both of those aspects are part of the one on one work that I do as well. So, some of the one on one work was honestly with somebody who already is a healer, and who wants to be able to figure out, well, what is, well, I'll tell you the, the, the little, The little Q here, the little, um, secret.
The secret is something called a don. Now the word don in Spanish means gift, and each one of us is born with a gift. [00:18:00] Now, in some circles of healers, there is the belief that you receive a don for no apparent reason. You know, sometimes it's because it's something that you just got at birth. In some cases, a don is something that you have because somebody in your family, usually two generations back, like a grandparent, was a healer and you naturally receive some of that as a gift for other groups of people.
It might be something that was received in dreams or visions, which are an important way for this deeper knowledge to come to us. But I kind of flipped that a little bit to say that your own healing, the crisis in your life is your dawn. And in one on one work, we explore what that don't is. We explore what, how healing it predisposes you to an [00:19:00] understanding of someone else suffering from similar issues, or at least something tangentially connected in some way, so that your niche in the marketplace is becomes connected to whatever the crises have been in your life.
So that's kind of the formula that I work with. So some of my one on one clients end up being, being people who are working on their own healing other on developing their practice, including understanding, where they are in the marketplace and how to deliver healing services to that clientele. And some of them, it's a combination.
James Marland: That's uh, that's really neat. Um, I'm wondering, was there a challenge or a bottleneck you had to overcome to get to where you are now? And then I'll ask you where you're going. But what was the challenge you had to overcome to get to the next level?
Bob Vetter: Well, the challenge probably was getting to [00:20:00] critical mass. The challenge was getting enough people together at one time for the magic to work. Because in, group work to a certain extent, more is better. And what I mean by that is, you know, you need us one on one is one on one, but beyond one on one, it helps to have a certain number of people.
I mean, it's, for me, I feel like it's easier to manage a group of, let's say at least 10 people than it would be to manage a group of like three, because a lot of the work that I want them to do is to bring people together work in dyads and triads, so you need a certain number of people. You also want them to be able to do the, the technical healing practices with one another and after everybody gets to know each other, if it's a very small [00:21:00] group, you, you've sort of already done it.
So by bringing people in, Over the course of time, it was injecting new blood into the group and that seemed to be the, the solution to that problem as I was, um, building up interest over the course of, of months and years.
James Marland: Yeah, I'm a, I'm a big fan of group work. I worked in a day hospital setting for a while and we did psych, I helped with psychoeducational groups and when the group was healthy and people were, you know, they got over the, the, the get to know you stage and they were working together and people would share things like it was, I don't want to use the word magical, but it was like, like things changed, thoughts changed, uh, paradigm shifts were made inside the group. And it was just really neat to just be a part of their knowing I was facility. I wasn't doing any of the change. I was just facilitating the the environment for them to [00:22:00] work together in this, uh, this, um, group that was helping each other. So, uh, I, I understand that. Uh, in, in your, you started out in the beginning, like you're, it's a community service.
It's like something for the community and, um, I was wondering if that was also part of the, the, the service, the healing is, is in the group. Um,
Bob Vetter: Yeah, well, so, so first maybe we should even back up and say what is healing if we're gonna talk about the work as healing. So to me, healing is to fulfill a person's own Evolutionary potential, meaning that we all come here with our own unique background. We have, each one of us has a story, which is why therapy and platica are so incredibly important, because we [00:23:00] are, uh, we're evoking, we're drawing out a story, an inner story that has to do with an inner journey that accompanies an external or outer journey that we make in this world that we've been thrown into.
So healing to me is to reach a different level of completion. And you know, there's no such thing as being done because we're, we're working toward that literally every day of our life. But we can look at ourselves as victims when we, uh, when we have a crisis, when we have a real turning point in our life, or we can take personal responsibility and see that crisis as an opportunity for recovery.
Spiritual growth. And that's exactly what I feel healing is, you know, within the system of thought, we talk about something called Susto and Susto [00:24:00] is a spiritual fright where, well, it's a little complicated what it is, but the point is, it overlaps with the Western concept of PTSD and every time a person experiences a Susto, they have an opportunity to either grow, you know, Or to sink back.
And that's why, you know, I'll offer this to your viewers and listeners. I actually created a board game to be able to play around with this concept. Because when I was thinking about Susto and how to teach it, I realized that every time you have a Susto, you have a chance to go up or go down. And I said, you know what that reminds me of?
It reminds me of the game shoots and ladders that we all played as children. So then I researched the origins of it. Do you know where that game came from?
James Marland: uh, are you going to tell me Native American?
Bob Vetter: No, not at all. [00:25:00] So the game, interestingly enough, wasn't a children's game. It was a game for Hindu monks to play so that they could understand states of consciousness and events along the way in their personal evolution as a Hindu monk. And that certain experiences that they would have Could be a chute that would drop them down lower or it could be a ladder to carry them up to a higher state and I said, you know, that's the perfect analogy in healing in general.
And that was why I created this game called Sustos. And it's a board game that you can either play by yourself in a group of other people, or with a group of other people. Like a board game, where you have a die, you throw the die, you move your pieces around, just like in playing Chutes and Ladders. So, later on, I'll make that available for free to anybody out there who wants a copy.
James Marland: you. That, that's, uh, I love the way of [00:26:00] thinking about that. I also like the, um, the way of thinking about your life story and your own road to healing, almost. Like, like your own road, like you can use the events in your life to make you, not maybe, this is very simplistic, but to make you a better person or to help you reach the next level, then you are using that.
Your own trauma to heal yourself or to be healed to the next level.
Bob Vetter: That's the point.
James Marland: right,
Bob Vetter: You've got that exactly right. And that, that healing occurs in a number of ways. I mean, it happens spontaneously. If you're paying attention, it happens in groups. And I, you know, I've seen amazing healings take place. Um, some apparently miraculous, but I mean, on a much more, uh, common everyday stage, people suffering from terrible, terrible addictions [00:27:00] to walking away.
And leaving that behind literally for, for good. Um, so, so sometimes it's by yourself, spontaneously for a person who really is awake and paying attention. Sometimes it's through one on one work and very often it's in community. The way that we heal by seeing a reflection of ourself in others. And the concern that each member of an intentional community like this has for one another.
Yeah.
James Marland: Very, very cool. Um, so if we were going to talk a year from now and we were, we were successful, what would we be, what would I, what could I celebrate for you is
Bob Vetter: So a year from now, let's celebrate my taking this out into a much more public sphere where people that I don't necessarily know are joining in. And we, we are doing, [00:28:00] um, a much more complex program in the sense that it has, uh, a group component live. It has a one on one component where I meet several times with that person.
And where they're doing homework and maybe watching some other recordings as well. So the different pieces all put together. And now oriented toward a wider general public.
James Marland: Great. that's, um, the hybrid course model where you do some live, some recorded, some homework, you come together and review it. And you do it in community. Um, I love it. So, uh, tell me, um, like where, where can people find you and, um, who, who is your ideal client? Like where, who do you want to come to your webpage or where can they find you?
Bob Vetter: Well, I want somebody who is a wounded healer of [00:29:00] one type or another. And I, you know, I say that, and I also say it with a little bit of caution because there are people who don't see themselves as healing themselves, you know, who, who maybe say, you know what, I've done my work, I'm, I'm here to work on other people.
And what I would say is even that person. Is a wounded healer in the sense that there is no end to this. There are. We maybe have a trajectory, a gradually upward trajectory that is marked or punctuated by By plateaus, by jumps upward, but we're always working on ourself one way or another. So the person who would come to me is either someone who is looking, if you're looking for healing of your own, in a way that we go together, where we, we take this [00:30:00] inner journey together.
Um, there are no, there are no diagnoses in this. So. In that way, I'm a sole coach. We're working on this journey together. I will share with you ceremony as I've learned it, as well as spontaneous and creative ceremony in the moment based on what it is that you need. If you're certain way along the way, We're going to look at how your gift, your don, is connected with the work that you will do.
I'll help you to identify who your clientele is. Very often by gender, by age, by, uh, types of experience that they're having, the challenges that they find in their life. We co explore that. To develop your niche and the avatar with whom you will be working.
James Marland: So where, where [00:31:00] can they find you? What's your website and do you have any courses you offer right now?
Bob Vetter: Yeah. So you can find me at www. bobvetter. com. So B O B V like Victor E T T E R. Dot com. That's bob veter.com. On my website, there are a bunch of resources that are there for free. There are blogs, there's all kinds of podcasts on there. There are articles, there's some videos. A lot is there for free. Uh, there, if you go on there and you.
Subscribe, you'll get information about the workshops that I'm doing. So, for example, I have one coming up in November that I'm doing with Dr. Louis Mel Medrona, who some of your listeners may be familiar with on. So he and I are doing a workshop on. Integrating hands on [00:32:00] work, specifically, he's a psychiatrist, um, but he's also part Lakota and part Cherokee and he'll be teaching the Cherokee bodywork side of this and I'll be teaching the platica or the, the one on one delving deeper and deeper to understand story and understand the importance of belief.
and looking at how that becomes embedded in the body and then using Cherokee bodywork to move that. So that's an example of a type of workshop that I do, but I, maybe somebody will come to my Temaskal. I have a monthly Temaskal here on Long Island in New York, um, but also the, the online courses that I teach.
Uh, that are coming up. You'll get information on all of that.
James Marland: to get to the, to get information on the workshop, they have to subscribe to the newsletter.
Bob Vetter: Uh, no, you could just look, go to the website and pull under events. You could pull [00:33:00] down, um, under events right now. The two things that I have coming up are that workshop and a tour in Oaxaca, Mexico, where we will have a one week program dedicated to experiencing Day of the Dead. Dia de los Muertos and the healing practices that are connected with it.
James Marland: Yeah, that workshop with you and the, the psychologist or psychiatrist. It looks, sounds very interesting because it's hitting a lot of, um, a lot of techniques that you can use, um, along with the other things. And, uh, what about the, um, maybe you'll share this with me off air, but where, where can they get the board game or the link for the board
Bob Vetter: Oh, yeah, so all you do is go to my website and there'll be a pop up that asks you if you want the game Sustos. And if you click on that, you enter your email address, you will get it as an email.
James Marland: Okay. Great.
Bob Vetter: So the two things that I mentioned that are [00:34:00] coming up, the, uh, the Program in Mexico, the travel program, uh, people will fly into Oaxaca city and spend a week with me and Laurencio Lopez Nunez, who is one of my teachers and who lives in Oaxaca.
He's Zapoteco. That's his tribe or, or cultural background. Uh, the other one will take place in New York city. That one is live. Uh, that is me along with. Dr. Louis Mel Medrona.
James Marland: Great. I will put that in the show notes. They sound very interesting. Um, and just neat experiences. Yeah, just neat experiences. Um, any, any, we're about to wrap up, Bob, any final message you want to send to people?
Bob Vetter: Yeah. Yeah. My final message is really the one that has been consistent, I think, underlying this, this whole podcast. And that is that [00:35:00] each one of us is on this incredible journey. We came into the world with our unique soul imprint and this life, including all of its challenges, And including all of its triumphs is all about that journey and how to make the most of it that we can So live a magnificent life.
That's my my Closing message for today.
James Marland: wonderful, Bob, that was, that was really amazing. Well, thank you, um, Bob Vedder for sharing your heart and your story with us and your story of healing and, uh, the wounded, you know, the wounded healer. Um, it's really, it's a, it really connects with me. So thanks for sharing that. This is James for the Scaling Therapy Practice.
Go put your mission in motion. That's the end of the show.
Bob Vetter: Very good james
James Marland: I enjoyed it. You had some really great, uh, great [00:36:00] offerings in there. Um, good, some good quotes. And, uh, your story is pretty inspirational because you started out. I like to, I like to come from a place of healing, like, like helping, healing, building, rather than hey, how do I make a buck on this thing? Like, And that sounds where you started out as well. Like, so I'm, I'm using my skills to help other people. Sure. You make money on it, but it's the, it's, that's where I like to start with people rather than the other way around.
Bob Vetter: Absolutely.
James Marland: Cause cause we are here for a reason, as you
Bob Vetter: That's the way I look at it. Exactly.
James Marland: story has a meaning.
Your story has purpose. yeah. So I really connected with that. So. I, um, this is, uh, talking about release date. Um, I [00:37:00] probably will release it, next Monday if that's okay with you.
Bob Vetter: Sure anytime and if you send it to me i'll post it too and include
James Marland: will send you, I gotta send you a form that just gets like, uh, an image and just your links, just written out for me. Um, and if you have any social, it'll ask for that. And, uh, the correct spelling of your name, though I think I have it, Vetter, V E T T E R, but
Bob Vetter: Uh, no tt tt with t
James Marland: yeah, T T E R, yep, E T T E R, Vetter. and we'll get that, we'll get that produced, alright?
Bob Vetter: Wonderful, James. Well, it was a pleasure and nice to, nice to get to know you.
James Marland: Yeah, um, are you, is this your first, uh, sprint?
Bob Vetter: It is.
James Marland: Oh, okay, so I'll, I'll be seeing you around.
Bob Vetter: I'll see you around on the platform.
James Marland: Yeah, [00:38:00] alright,
Bob Vetter: Sounds good.