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There's certain chores you can identify and you, I even just asking therapists when you're connecting with them, are there any particular clients or or types of clients or situations you really don't like? I'll give you examples of what it's been for me in the past, I've seen, I've never worked with like young kids, but I've done teenager.
as a part of my, uh, my client work before, and when I was early in marketing, there were a lot of people I would market to that didn't see teenagers, but I did mm-hmm. , and so they would get requests for people that were in high school. Th you know, I, I think of one person in particular that as far as therapeutic issues, we saw pretty similar demographics, but he didn't see anyone under 18.
but I did, but that didn't mean he didn't get requests from people who, could you ask
Hello and thank you for joining us with the Scaling Therapy Practice. This is James Marlin with Dr. David Hall. Hello David. Hi James. This week we're going to be discussing referral relationships with other therapists, but before we get into that, we're gonna talk about our tool, tech or tip of the week.
I'm gonna start my, my tool or my tech? No, it's a tip. . My tip of the week is from the book. Great By Choice, by Jim Collins. It's a, a wonderful book that talks about. Do companies just get lucky? You know, is luck just a big part of why people are success? Did they actually time things right? And he goes over the things on how.
Businesses remove lock from the equation. And one of those steps, uh, I think the chapter's called the 20 Mile March, something like that. And it, it talks about how if you were going to, and he tells a story, if you were gonna start from Southern California and walk to Maine, that the best way to do that is just to walk 20 miles a day every day.
Rain or shine, whether it's hot or cold, whether it's a, you know, it's real easy and you think you could do 40 miles. Um, that consistent effort, that consistent progress over time leads to, uh, a better result. And it, and then he goes through, he's data driven, so he talks about comp, compute, uh, companies that do that rather than the person who starts out and the first day they're all excited and they go 40 miles.
Then the next day it's California. So it's hot. So they, they like travel less and then when it's snowy, they stay in their tent and then, then they try to make up for it, and then they actually are really exhausted and that type of up and down. Uh, rhythm is no good for achieving a goal. He talks about just, just being consistent, being diligent and, and being sustainable over time.
And I just really, it really spoke to me at this time where I feel behind, I just feel behind all the time like I have to. Like work related hours and do other things to make up for it. And it just really hit me that that's not the way to meet your goal. You're gonna exhaust yourself. Just be sustainable.
So that is my tip of the week. Mine's
related.
Yeah. Cause it's, I almost went into it,
but Yeah, it's the, the, you talk about feeling behind and something I struggle with a lot too, James. And it's something that in, in recent months, I've really been actively challenging myself of, you know, what, how do I live?
Uh, I mean this is sounds cliche, but how do I live more in the moment? In the Sure. In the sense of not just having this idea of putting off. Enjoyment and contentment to this future version of myself. But I'm gonna grind it out right now until I get there. Uh, but my tip is take a lunch break because it it, this has been a running joke in my office in the past week or so.
One of my therapists, who, he's a close friend of mine, he, he and I became friends before he came to work for me. He's, he's actually the only person in my practice that we were friends before. Became an employee. And that was an interesting thing to, to navigate. And that could be maybe a future episode of this idea of like, you know, personal relationships with employees and managing that.
But the, uh, but we, we navigated that well so far. And, but he's, he really, um, sees a lot of clients I think, and. , uh, he talks about like this idea of just scarfing down in between sessions. Mm-hmm. heating up some food real quick and, and the 10 minutes in between sessions just kind of gorging. I bet
there's a lot of therapists out there that are relating
to this.
Getting indigestion and, yeah, just schedule. I mean, like, it, it could feel like a lost hour could feel like, ah, but I, I could be seeing other client then, and. , you know, what income am I losing and things like that. But it, it's exhausting to not have those breaks. So, and not, I don't mean just eat lunch in the sense of like to eat, but to give yourself just a break in the rhythm of a day and it's worth it.
Mm-hmm. , that's
my tip. So take your lunch break and it does, it does add to the end of the day, like it does make your last couple hours of the. way more productive than if you didn't. Cuz I notice, like, I'm, I'm, I'm guilty of not taking lunch breaks because I'm just gonna grind it out, or I'm gonna finish this one last thing and then I notice the, the last hour or two of the day, like, I get half as much done as I did in the beginning of the day because I've just, I've worked, worked to the limit of, you know, 6, 8, 6, 7 hours.
your, your brain is done. If I would've taken an hour break or a 30 minute break or refueled with some food or water, I would work. I, I know you, you notice you are more sustainable and you're able to do more when you take care of yourself. I guess. It's like that self-care. Yeah. You know, to self care.
Awesome. So we're gonna get into our topic, uh, referral relationships with other therapists or how to grow that. And my first question about that, uh, David, is why would somebody even wanna make, uh, referral relationships with other therapists? Aren't you all competitors and competing to find the, the clients?
That's a mindset that a lot of people have. I think it's inaccurate, but it's a mindset , um,
So I started in practice in an interesting time economically in the United States. I was, um, I, I graduated from my master's degree program, which is when I started working as a therapist in 2006. And I, I, I was. I've had other jobs I was doing. I wasn't very focused at that point. I, I worked in a group practice, but I also was doing some administration work for an organization, and so I, I was involved in a few different things and then in 2008 I ended up moving from where I was, I was living in Atlanta, Georgia, which is where I finished grad school and ended up moving to Knoxville, Tennessee, which is where I'm from.
I grew up here. My. Is here and, and from here. And I, but I've been away, uh, for college and grad school. And this was me moving home and I got married and, uh, my wife and I, my wife's a therapist and we joined a group practice together, and 2008 was fine. It was a pretty thriving group practice. There was a lot strong referral base.
And so at the beginning I didn't really think a lot about the idea. Drumming up my own. Well, you
did, you, the company did it for you, right? Yeah. There there's quite a bit of that. It's an established company that had established referral bases. Mm-hmm. and that it was their job. Like you didn't go home at night thinking, oh, where are my referrals coming
from?
Yeah. It, it was generally their job. It, it was kind of this, it was encouraged for therapists to. To develop their own referral relationships. But at the beginning, there was enough coming in that it was okay. But 2008 was the beginning of the financial crisis. The, the housing crash was happening. Housing, yeah.
And it, I started to really feel the effects, though going to the next year, 2009. 2009 was a very lean year. For me as a therapist, I referrals for the practice as a whole really dried up cuz two things happened. One, the practice had just done a big growth where a lot more providers had been taken on cuz the practice opened a new location and so it was a lot more, refer a lot.
More providers were having to divide up the same amount of referrals coming in generally to the practice.
This, this is an aside, but do you find that in your practice when you add new therapists, that some of the current therapists are like, why are you doing this? Because I still need
people it to a degree, but because I went through that experience personally, it affects how I hire.
I hire much more slowly than, and I typically, we typically don't hire if people are still trying to. Generally, and I I will say, can you repeat that
to your therapist? Like, Hey, we're gonna take, yeah, we say that. You say that.
Okay. We, you make it an overt process. .
Yeah. I've, I've worked with some people that grow really fast and, and then, well, I worked with the assistants, and the assistants would always get these calls.
Like, why aren't you giving me this person? Why are you giving it to them? Mm-hmm. , when I, you know, I was here first. Those types of back and forth. So,
um, that, that was, and having lived that, that was one of the things I, I, lessons I learned was I didn't wanna know.
It was really lean. Right. And then they were, they grew and hired and now all of a sudden you're like, You know, how am I gonna live
How
am I gonna live? It was, well, it was a combination of I was, um, people couldn't file in insurance with me at the time, I wasn't independently licensed. Sure, sure. Yep. And there were other people in the practice that could file for insurance, and so that moved them further up and it just, there's a lot fewer referrals coming in because of the financial crisis.
There were a lot more therapists that were having to be devi, and so it was very, Very lean
for me. It all built up. It was like this perfect storm of Yes.
Of trouble. Yeah. And so that's when I had to get focused on building my own referrals. So it goes into thing of. And there were lots of different referral sources that I learned how to develop through that season.
Um, I began reading books. There weren't a lot of books out at the time on practice building. Uh, one of the ones I got though was Casey Truks, uh, uh, be a Wealthy Therapist. I think that's what it's called. It's either be a Wealthy Therapist or Becoming a Wealthy Therapist, but, uh, that was one of the few.
Her and Lynn Konski, I think is her. we're like one of the only two books, uh, available at the time in the, uh, late 2000 aughts on practice building. They're a lot more now, but, uh, and I really tried to, to apply some things, but one of the biggest referral sources I discovered was other therapists. Now I've gotten, I went a really roundabout way, James, to your question, which is, aren't other therapists your competi.
I know that was facetious, but Yeah,
it was. It was, yes. But, but like, and so I'm gonna answer that question now. Yes, but, and here's the big butt, the, the average primary care, the average therapist, that's full-time. And a lot of people wonder like what full-time practice looks like and statistically, For, uh, in private practice, if you're doing outpatient work, typically it's between like 20 to 25 to 30 hours a week.
That's typically full-time practice. Most people, I think, are hitting between the 20 and 25. Mm-hmm. and, and that's quote, full-time client hours, right? Client hours, yeah. Client hours, yeah. Not necessarily hours of the office, but that many client hours a week. Yeah. And let's say half of your clients you see weekly and then half are biweekly or some combination.
So that means. That a full caseload is gonna be somewhere around between 40 and 45 active cases of, of, of varying degrees of frequency. That's what a full caseload is for a therapist. The average primary care physician in the United States has an active patient load of about 1500 people. The A 1500. Yeah.
And you think about that because you know, how often does the average person see their doctor? . And even if you're, you know, you're real on top of it, you do a physical every year, you, you go in, like, if, if you go in a few times a year, that's pretty frequent for a lot of people to see the primary care.
Yeah, that's true. True physician. That's true. And so you spread it out over the course of a year. It's 1500 is, uh, and, and mean. That's, I, I can't remember where I picked up that number initially, give or take. So you look at that like the I, here's why I bring up that. the difference between full, like if, if 10 patients quit a primary care physician, they may not notice.
Right. Right. For sure. I mean, they, they could quit three months before they even tell you they quit . Yes.
It, they're not gonna notice necessarily because it goes to, it goes, then it goes to, you know, from 1500 to 1,490. Yeah. And new ones will come in and it's fine, but if you've got an active caseload of.
and 10 people quit. That's a quarter of your caseload. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. But the same sort of way of growing it, the difference between empty and full for a therapist isn't that much and isn't that long. Right. So the reason it's important to market, I think, to other therapists is because it's only competition if that therapist is still trying to get new clients or still has open spaces or still has.
But as soon as that therapist is full, , they need you. Right. Um, I don't like saying I can't help somebody when someone calls me for, to, to become a client of mine, and I don't have space to, to accommodate them. I want options for, yeah. And so, uh, an empty therapist may be competition, but the difference between empty and full is really small.
Mm-hmm. , um, compared to other healthcare providers for, for therapy and realizing. . Even if this therapist is needing more clients in this moment, there's gonna be another time where they don't and where they're gonna need overflow. They're gonna need to be able to send people and that's why therapists are good to, to market to.
So how did you, how did you discover this? Like how did you know it was a good idea to start working on your referral list?
Well, I, I knew it was a good idea because I needed more clients. Uh, and that was, uh, and then I just tried what were the things that worked. And part of it for me initially was, uh, a big, uh, it was a lot like throwing spaghetti against the wall.
I didn't know what was gonna stick, but I just tried a lot of things and there were things I tried in marketing and certain referral relationships I looked to focus on that weren't as fruitful. And what I discovered in trial and error was therapists.
So what, what were, uh, some of the barriers then? You were, you were talking like you tried a bunch of things.
Were there any barriers to creating this list?
Um, I mean for different referral partners, yes. And, and, but that feels like a different episode. And in talking specifically about for therapists, um, yeah, there were. for one. Uh, therapists are horrible at responding to emails and phone calls, particularly for non-clients, but even for clients.
Yeah. Uh, that's, and so one of the things I had to learn was not to take it personal when people didn't get back to me. Mm-hmm. , uh, that I just would stay on top if there's somebody I wanted to connect with. I was just persistent. Mm-hmm. . And in realizing that, you know, you had to be that just because I emailed somebody didn't mean they were gonna email me.
and people were busy and, and I experienced this. Now, I, I've, there's a, uh, new, uh, treatment facility that's opened up in my community and there's the, their head of referral development, business development has been trying to get with me since before, uh, for a few months now. and she had originally, originally reached out to me and I got back to her and we kind of playing phone tag and, but they had emailed me in this last week, like twice and I hadn't responded.
And I feel bad a little bit, but I'm also very busy and they're not, but part of it, they're not high on my list. Like I don't really need them. They're, and, and, and I, I'm very sympathetic because they are, I've been in that position before as having to drum up business for a new treatment, uh, uh, facility.
And I know this is their
job. When, when I, so when I was run the virtual assistant company, pretty successful, I would get three, four requests from my time a week or more just like, uh, Like, partner with this, do this. I got fatigued. Like it was, it was, uh, it wasn't that I didn't value them or what they were doing or what they were trying to do.
I already had like six of these similar things in the fire already, and I could not, I could not get one more, like, I couldn't do one more. Like, I just, I couldn't even read the email. I couldn't even think about it.
I felt that, and for this case I'm talking about like I responded to, and this was on Monday.
And they said, Hey, love to come in. And I'm like, I don't really need to meet them. I have their information online. I know, like they, I, I know what they're trying to do and that's okay. And know part of it is, is there's a certain amount of sympathy, but I gave them a date two weeks from when they requested.
I, like, I, I looked at my calendar, I'm like, Hey, if you want to come by this hour, but I didn't give them choices. I said, I've got this time on this day at my. and they, they agreed and great. But anyway, but I, I try to remember, part of it's, I try to remember myself when I needed to build those referral relationships.
Yeah. And so I wanna be kind and responsive when I can be, but be persistent. That was a barrier. Um, and, and yeah, just realizing that, uh, sometimes those therapists may be, A little wary cuz they may be thinking, well, your competition, why would I wanna connect with you? So well is is the
mindset, uh, I, I'm gonna, I might get this wrong, but like the closed, like you grasp everything closed and like nothing can get in.
Or like the, the open hand type of example where if you live with that open hand mindset, It's, it's easier to develop those relationships. Is that sort of It is. And,
and help just certain therapists, again, therapists are just hard personalities to crack sometimes. People are busy people. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's hard for people to make time, but stay persistent in it.
But the, um, and, and if they see you as competition, here's how I encourage people to, to have this conversation. So let's say you're reaching out to. , uh, if it's an email, it's a phone call. Um, here's the general script. I mm-hmm. I offer to people, which is the key is not to make it about I need something from you.
Right. Make it about, I wanna develop a relationship with you that I want to be beneficial for you and me, but start with how it's gonna benefit them. So, a typical way that I. Coach people to say it is. If it's me, I would say, Hey, uh, my name's David Hall. I'm a therapist in your area. Uh, it looks like we see, I found you online.
It looks like that we see a pretty similar demographic of client and I'd love to take you out for coffee because I'm wanting to develop new referral relationships for when I need to send mm-hmm. people I can't accommodate. and to see how I might be a, a, a fit for you and help you in your practice. But I always start with how can I benefit them?
Right? And I don't wanna be disingenuous about it cuz it is true. Like if this does, if this person does see a similar client demographic to what I see, at some point I'll be full and I'll need to know about them.
You're, you need to, you need to help people when they get reached to you, even if they, mm-hmm.
can't see you, you need to be able to like, give, get them the next cha, you know, what's the next step?
Now, in the moment where I'm making that phone call, I may be com have a completely empty schedule, and I don't have these, I'm not gonna be sending clients away. Mm-hmm. . But it's not disingenuous because that's just the reality of this moment.
What other, what other moments are going to look like? Could be different. I don't wanna develop the relationship for that. Uh, so that's how I encourage people to start the conversation. Um, present yourself as a resource when you meet with them. Um, I have some other tips. What
if
they say no or they ignore you?
Like when do you, when do you reengage? Like, or when are good times to reengage? Like maybe the beginning of a school year. The beginning of a year. Like what are the, the times
that, well, if they, if they say no, um, You can judge that? No. What kind of, no, that is, if it's no, uh, unkind, unfriendly sort of way, , then, you know, move on.
But it could just be, well, I don't have time right now. Right. But it's like, well, is there a time in the future where it'd be good for me to check back in? Mm-hmm. , uh, Ask the follow up, ask for kinda the opportunity if they just ignore you. Um, there's a, a therapists are busy and they're just generally not good at responding to stuff.
Um, I like to follow something called Hamlin's razor for this. Okay. Hamlin's razor states never ascribe to malice. What can be adequately ascribed to ignorance or neglect. Mm-hmm. . in layman's terms, what that means is don't assume that they don't like you assume that they're just ignorant of the situation or they're just not attending to it, like being ignored.
It, it's, it's easy to assume when you're the person being ignored that they see your email and they're like, I don't wanna help this person, or I don't wanna talk to this person. , don't assume that. Assume that. It's just that they're just not on top of it.
Nothing. Does that sound like the fundamental attribution error? Have you heard of that?
Yes. It, it's similar. It it plays into the,
the, yeah. I would, I would always tell people, like if, well, my example was if somebody cuts you off in traffic, that doesn't mean that they meant to cut you off in traffic and they, they hate you and like they're the biggest jerk in the world.
like you, you assume what they're thinking or doing, but maybe they're late for work or their kid's sick, or they just didn't even see the ignorant thing. They didn't even see you. But then we assume that and we make no excuses for them. Yeah. But then when we do the very same thing, we're like, oh, I was late or I had to make the light, or, I'm not a bad person.
I did this, um, what was yours called again? Hanlan's razor. Hanlan's
Razor, okay. Yeah, it's. , it's helpful and it, it's helped me overcome certain barriers cuz there's certain, um, key relationships that I had in business and otherwise that they just didn't respond. Mm-hmm. . And it's because they're kind of scattered as individuals and I just had to stay on it.
And there's, there's one key relationship I have, which is funny with my friend Bill Hanlin. Mm-hmm. . And so I learned about the razor when I was failing to get a response for him. This was years. and he had, cuz he had told me to reach out to him about something and I was, and he wasn't getting back with me and it's something I really wanted to do and he wasn't responding
And then I came across Hamlin's Razor in dealing with my frustration with O Hanlin. And so I said to myself, I go, I'm gonna reach out consistently until he tells me to. F off. Yeah. Buzz off man, but, or respond. Yeah. And I did, and it took me six months , but he finally, but it's worth it. It's a good relationship.
It was a, it's a hugely, and, and, and like, and, and the truth was the attribution that I chose to make was important because he wasn't me. Mm-hmm. , part of it was, this was his life was a whirlwind at that point. It wasn't mm-hmm. and I wasn't, what I was trying to connect with wasn't a huge priority for. and at that moment, and he would say that like he would cuz he was busy with other things.
And when I finally was able to engage with him is when, um, his life slowed down and he had the capacity to, to engage with it.
I, I remember reading, uh, somewhere, it was probably a book on conflict where, um, when we don't know what's going on, we often assume the worst. Like it just fill, like the gap, the knowledge gap is filled in with.
you know, they don't, the the bad stuff, they, they don't care. They don't, they're mean people they don't like. And, and if, can you imagine in a relationship, if you filled in all the, the stuff you don't know about what they're thinking with the bad things, how Yeah. You're, it's gonna impact your behavior. So, uh, yeah, it's really important what you're talking about to fill in what you don't know with not, not the, the negative assumptions that you, you don't even know if they're true.
Yeah.
I, uh, Persistence is the first thing. Okay. Um, making it, you know, be forward in how you can be a benefit to them. Be genuine in it. Be really thinking about like, is this, and, and don't say that I'm gonna refer to you if you can't ever imagine referring to this person. Right? But, so don't be dishonest, but think about like, if it just like gimme, you know, what can you do for me?
That's not a very savory thing for people in engaging in your relationship. Right. Uh, here's another, If you're gonna meet with people, uh, do breakfast and here's why, why would you guess Breakfast James? Yeah. Why breakfast? What would you guess, James? They're two key reasons. I'll, I'll, I'll give you, so see if you can get one of them.
Oh, dear. Well, Most diners that I go to serve really good breakfast. . That's
the, that's good. Re if you have a good, if you, if breakfast is gonna be a pleasant meal, that's a good one. So whenever I go
out with people for like groups and things, it's always breakfast, but I haven't really figured out. Why I, I think, um, it, it's, uh, it's a little casual.
It's,
um, that's good. Those are, you're doing extra reasons. Good breakfast. Alright.
I'm, I'm draw, I'm drawing. I
get this from a book I read about marketing a long time ago. Uh, yes. That's one of it is, it's cheap. If you're going, okay. If you're going to, breakfast is usually the least expensive meal. Okay. And you wanna pay if you're going to develop a marching relationship.
Makes sense. You wanna pay for. , but breakfast is not going to be, is gonna be cheaper than lunch and dinner. Mm-hmm. in, in almost any place. Even if you go to a places that that has an expensive breakfast, if that place also serves lunch and dinner, it will be more expensive for those other meals. Yeah. But you're not necessarily gonna have to deal with the awkwardness of someone ordering lobster for breakfast necessarily.
It's typically where, where I am in the south, like it's a lot of, you know, WAFF house is a big spot, or things like, yeah. But breakfast is, is pretty inexpensive. So particularly if you're, you know, trying to, you're not looking to spend a lot of money. Breakfast is a good reasons that mo at least expensive meal and you wanna pay.
That's one reason. The other reason is, is you're the first thing they begin thinking about in that day. . And so that gives them, if you've presented yourself as an opportunity for them as a referral relationship, they have the whole day in front of them to think about how you can play into that. Mm-hmm.
and let, let's say for some reason, like you were meeting them for like coffee after work and, and, and something else. They might start thinking about you, but their work day's already done and they're gonna go and disengage from work, thinking they're gonna go to sleep. At some point they're gonna be, and then the day starts over.
and you may be lost in that shuffle. So it gives you the opportunity to be in somebody's mind at the big, early in the day, and you can take when
it's not full of other things. Yeah,
yeah. That makes sense. So that would be, uh, uh, that's, that's one tip. Um, another tip. This is one, uh, have a, if you're looking to connect with other people, other, other providers, identify what might you might have as a chore of choice.
What's, what do you mean by. Something that you don't mind doing that other people often do mind doing. It doesn't have to be something you love that much, but something you don't mind. So I, one of my jobs when I was younger, James was a buddy of mine and I, we had a janitorial service when I was like 18, 19.
We used to clean offices and we would divide and conquer and there were certain things like he didn't mind doing toilet. or our windows, and I really disliked both, um, windows. I found really mono, but I didn't mind vacuuming. Yeah. He was so bored with vacuuming and so we would, we would always do one or the other.
Mm-hmm. , like I would always do the vacuuming for the most part because I didn't mind vacuuming as much as he minded vacuuming. And he would do the windows because he didn't mind doing windows. That was his choice. So it wasn't that he loved windows necessarily. , but he didn't mind it. So
as a therapist, yes.
So how does that help you in this, this relationship?
There's certain chores you can identify and you, I even just asking therapists when you're connecting with them, are there any particular clients or or types of clients or situations you really don't like? I'll give you examples of what it's been for me in the past, I've seen, I've never worked with like young kids, but I've done teenager.
as a part of my, uh, my client work before, and when I was early in marketing, there were a lot of people I would market to that didn't see teenagers, but I did mm-hmm. , and so they would get requests for people that were in high school. Th you know, I, I think of one person in particular that as far as therapeutic issues, we saw pretty similar demographics, but he didn't see anyone under 18.
but I did, but that didn't mean he didn't get requests from people who, could you ask
them for this? Do you say, Hey, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll say, right. We come right out and say, yeah, I like these are, yeah. How do, how would you approach that?
I mean, sometimes it would be, there's certain things that are more common as chores for therapists.
Like another one for me is I developed a niche with narcissistic leaning men. Mm-hmm. , uh, that I do pretty well therapeutically with them. And there are a lot of therapists that are very overt that like, I do not enjoy narcissistic, gleaning males. Mm-hmm. . And so that was, I was aware that that was a common chore for a lot of people and it was one that I didn't mind.
So when I was forward and talking about it, like, oh, I've got plenty of those that I can send you. Uh, okay. And but you think about like, what is something that you like or like well enough that's rarer or even. as you're meeting somebody who's like, is there anything you particularly don't like seeing?
And they may list four or five things and you may for four of those things. You may not wanna see them either, but there may be one thing.
Right. And, and there's only, there's, there's, uh, some of the therapists I've worked with, they will take a few of those, but once they get to a certain level, yeah. Even if they're not full, they're like, I cannot take one more of this type of person.
They're draining me. Mm-hmm. , what can I do with. . Oh, David sees this person. Maybe I'll refer
it to him. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not just, it's e like you said, James, it could be they're not even full, but it, they're topped off on that for me, of a chore, like I have a pretty low limit on, uh, infidelity work with couples.
Mm-hmm. , infidelity recovery. That's, that's something I find very taxing. I'll do some of it, but I have a pretty low. But I have therapists, friends of mine that that is their bread and butter. That's what they do. Um, and so for you it could be that you see an age range or you see couples, um, and you're talking to a lot of individual therapists or you see certain types of individuals and you're talking to a lot of couples therapists or take your pick.
And so it's figuring out what, is it something that you offer that solves a problem for them, but you always want to be approaching other therapist. as a problem solver for them. And if you do that, there's a quid pro quo that kind of gets inferred in that, that if you're willing to help them, they're more willing to help you.
And I don't mean this in an insincere, manipulative sort of way, but it's really hard to develop. Meaningful referral relationships if you lead in with How can you help me? Yeah.
Well, people like to work with generous people. Yes. Like just, it's just easier to work with people who are generous and add value, and if you can figure out where can you be generous and how can you add value?
it's gonna be easier to work with you than somebody who comes and says, you know, give me your referrals, .
Yeah. So be persistent, you know, have, be generous. Have a chore of choice. Here's my last bit, okay. In building relationships with, with therapists, um, be consistent. And, um, in a recent episode that James and I recorded, uh, it, it may come out before or after this, James was talking about this idea of.
The cons. Well, was it the beginning of this episode? Were you talking about
the uh, 20 mile march? It was actually this episode. Okay.
This episode. Yeah. I know. Things run together. They run together. So anyway, earlier this episode, James was talking about consistency, referral relationships, work like this.
Here's often what can happen for successful referral relationships. Let's say. James is another therapist in my community, and I've been marketing to James and James like, and I noticed like some of it is in, in. When you initially establish a, a relationship with somebody, oftentimes referrals do not come right away.
Whatever marketing you do is for three to six weeks in the future, for the most part. It's really, it's rare to see, uh, fruit of that endeavor immediately. Sometimes it happens, but it's not fair to expect it. Hmm. It, it often takes time for that thing to gest. Um, that you'll do something, you'll make a connection with somebody, you'll do an event, whatever it is, and you'll see the fruit of that later.
But let's say I, I take James out for breakfast in one of these delicious diners, and James, you know, appreciates that I'm willing to see teenagers cuz he doesn't like seeing teenagers or, you know, narcissistic leaning individuals or whatever. And he sends me plenty of those and I get pretty consistent referrals from James.
uh, for the next few months, and then it kind of trickles off. It's easy for me to then think of like, oh, James doesn't have any more people for me, or Maybe James doesn't like me anymore. He's not . And the truth is it just becomes an out of sight, out of mind thing for people. Yeah. And oftentimes where people think that they need a market is I need to find a whole new set of people to connect with, and it's usually much more fruitful to go back and reconnect with people you've already connected.
and so I'll do something for me, historically, what it's been is I just, I, I choose to assume that they just haven't thought about me. That they probably still have clients in their, uh, world that they would think to refer to me. They just haven't thought of me in a while, and because I haven't seen them or I haven't been on their radar and.
but it could be something as simple as like sending a text message. If, if James and I have that sort of connection relationship, be like, Hey James, I'm just thinking about you. I hope practice is going well for you. If there's anything that I can offer that would be helpful for you in this season, let me know.
Just wanted to let you know. Um, I've had some recent, uh, I've had some clients that have recently wrapped up work and I've got some openings. Mm-hmm. , if you have anybody that could be a good fit, love to catch up with you sometime for us to do breakfast. . Mm-hmm. , something like that. Something that that's, that's typically my sort of message.
And James and I may get breakfast, he may be like, oh, I, I really like to go back out to breakfast, or, you know, something like that. Or, but at the very least I've put myself back on his mind and he's more like, like, oh yeah, like, I forgot, like, David's an option. I do this constantly. Well, I'll, I'll remember the.
and it's not that I'm like mm-hmm. , I have any negative thoughts or feelings about them. It's just there's a lot of things I carry around in my head. I'll just not actively think about people. I, I'll, I'll One of my, uh, therapist that I'm inconsistent referring to, she's a great provider in my community, but what it is, is she and I used to go to church together and she and her husband, uh, ended up going to a different, they're part of a different church community.
and I don't see her as frequently. Mm-hmm. and because of that, I don't think about her. Yep. And, but something came up on social media recently and I thought, ah, I need to remember like in, but whereas she was on kind of the four, the, the tip of my brain for referrals for certain sorts of clients at a different season.
She's not as much anymore, but it's not cuz of any ill will or any lack of belief in her ability. It's just my life doesn't bring her up as much.
Great. So as we, as we start winding down, what are some, if we haven't gone over this yet, what are some tips to get started? Like, you're just starting, you're, maybe you're like, yeah, that, that's a good little fearful.
What, what do, what do you, what are some tips to get started? , um,
here's, here's what, what I recommend to people. So have a client in mind that you're trying to connect with. What, what do you feel is your sort of client? Mm-hmm. . Um, sometimes people will be too broad, but, you know, there's a whole, there's a class I have and there's a whole exercise I take people through of like thinking through who's your target client, but have, have somebody identified and go online as that sort of client.
So let's say your target client is. Women in their mid twenties dealing with anxiety about relationships and career, let's say that's your, that's your target. Mm-hmm. . So as you know, pretend like you're one of those, you're an individual that fits in those demographics. And how would you go about finding a, the.
So, you know, typically for someone in that age range, uh, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna find a therapist by going online and they're gonna go, they're gonna do a search, like an internet search on Google, or they're gonna be, versus Yeah. You know, in different generations, most of these generations of aged do.
But when I first started teaching marketing of a certain age range, someone would go to a phone book. Uh, that's not what most people do anymore. But there was a generation where that would be what they would. . And so think about what's this demographic going to do and who comes up. And so most of the time what's gonna come up is online directories.
And so Psychology Today being the biggest, but there are other ones like, like Good Therapy and Monarch and Therapy Den, and there there are other like directories that come up and search those directories for the sorts of therapists that see the sort of client you're thinking about and see who comes up and make a list of therapists in your c.
Um, that's one way to start. Another way is just think of who you know. Like sometimes it, it's much easier to make a connection with somebody who's a warm contact. So think of people you went to grad school with. Think of people, um, that e even just starting with co-workers, if you're in a co-op or a group therapy practice, or just how are you connecting with people you share office space with or in close proximity to.
A couple episodes
ago, I think we talked about, um, uh, the, uh, re. Affiliation, like people in your area? Yeah. Uh, that you meet with groups and stuff. Yeah.
Like, yeah. Go who, who's in? Yeah. Who's in your community that's leading, uh, where's the opportunity to meet new therapists? And if you meet people Yeah. And you, it's a positive relationship.
Ask like, who else? I mean, a common question would be, you know, I'd be like, James, I've really appreciated, you know, the referrals you've sent me. Um, who else do you think I should connect? that I may not be thinking about that also sees people like this. Or do you
track who sends you
referrals? It's good if you can.
It's good to a lot of EHRs, like, um, uh, therapy Notes and Simple Practice will let you in a, in a client file, uh, highlight where the client came from and it, it can be extra work, but particularly if you're in that
phase, does it collate the data and tell you like you got 10 referrals from.
Um, I don't know.
And when I was working, honestly, James assistance,
when I was working with the assistants, some, some practices had a call log and you could track who referred you and if you, uh, if you accepted them or didn't accept them, because often. . If they, if they're sending people you can't accept. All you have to do is say, you know, thank you so much for the referrals.
Mm-hmm. , I'm looking for this type of client. You know, do you have anybody that fits that range? Yeah. Or if they're sending you a lot of people Thank you cards, breakfast, you know, the, the smoothen, the relationship goes a long way to like, let them know.
No ab Absolutely. Think about if you're getting a lot of work from people.
Send 'em a Starbucks card or find out what they like, find out what the sorts of things they're into and like, you know, it, it's like you said, James, generosity. People want to respond to that. People don't wanna work with those people. Yeah. And, um, so to, to answer your que I've not actually managed that in any, eh, rs I've worked in.
So I don't know if it tabulates it. Historically in the past for me, I did keep a spreadsheet. I would kept an Excel spreadsheet where I would put in, um, and I would create a pie. At any given point where, like, looking at my referral sources and I would, it was something I did once a quarter and I'm far less disciplined about that right now, but historically that's what something I did.
And so there are different ways that you can come up to track it that I, I encourage you to track it because, so, so when you're getting
started, tracking it is probably a, a great idea. Absolutely, absolutely. Other things, uh, uh, any other startup tips?
Just get, I mean, we'll, we'll probably do other episodes I imagine, James, where we'll talk about like other referral sources.
But therapists is one of the ones that I think is most overlooked. People assume it's competition, so they start there, but really they're people that are tuned into the ex, to the, an audience is looking for the exact same service that you offer and any potential and, and you want it for your own referral network in the.
because you wanna have the mindset that like one day I will be full and I'll need other people to send people to. Great. And how do I have that? And you know, and then it becomes in this idea in the future when they're full, and I'm not then, but it becomes, but really look at as a reciprocal relationship.
If it's just a, uh, parasitic relationship versus a symbiotic one, I'd really discourage that attitude that comes across. . Um, it's really hard to really those, but if it's just, I need, you're working, you're
working with therapists who can read people Yeah. You're, you're gonna, they're gonna find out like, and
don't fake it.
Don't have this idea, like, I need to come across as generous and mutually beneficial, but I just want from you. Yeah. Like really, really generous. Set the mindset. Yeah. Of like, how do I make this reciprocal and mutually beneficial? Mm. . Great.
So, uh, if there's one thing you want somebody to take away from this episode, um, I, I'll start, uh, my, uh, one of my.
Favorite motivational speakers, I guess is Zig Ziegler. Mm-hmm. and listened to a bunch of his books and, and one of his big phrases is, if, if you help enough people get what they want, you get what you want. Or I, he might say it a little bit differently than that, but it's the, the, the, um, y'all make it to the top together.
Like you're always, you're, you help people, they help you. It's the, the generosity thing. And that's sort of how I live. My, my philosophy is, you know, I'm just trying to give people what I want. Like I want help. I'm gonna give help and, um, it comes back to you. So that, that's my one thing. Be generous. What I would,
I would agree.
Have one thing, uh, have a chore of choice. Decide what you are. Okay. . If you wanna market other therapists, decide something, you're go, you're okay doing that. You, that other people, or at least some other people, don't let that be one of the angles. I don't know if I really like that as my one thing, but I'm gonna leave it as that because there are other things that are good.
But, uh, that's my one thing,
so, no, that's good. Well, it's, it's a starting point, like some people wouldn't even know how to approach. The conversation. So this is like a very good, that, that one thing of like, have one thing that you wanna be able to offer and that's, that's where you start your generosity.
Like you're offering to take this chore off from somebody. It's really good. Yeah. O okay. Well thanks for joining me. This is James with, uh, Dr. David Hall. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.
Later y'all.