STP 12 |
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[00:00:00] James Marland: Hello, this is James with the Scaling Therapy Practice. I have a special guest today, Ann Burkart. Um, and, uh, hello Ann. Hi, how are you? James, welcome to the show. I met Ann, um, at a, uh, we're doing a Level Up event . The practice of the practice. Mm-hmm. and, uh, that's coming up here in two weeks and I met her in one of our meetups and I just loved her story of how it had some twists and turns.
[00:00:29] James Marland: Um, let me introduce, let me read the introduction for, and then I'll let her introduce herself. , um, and we're gonna get into her story, but Anne is a marriage and family therapist in Charlotte, North Carolina. She approaches therapy through the idea that we are all in relationships that affect our emotional and daily lives.
[00:00:47] James Marland: These are relationships with other people that may be physically present in our lives, may be psychologically present in our lives or the relationship we have with ourselves. She. Completed her level three. Gottman training as well as other Gottman trainings and specializes in working with couples, healing their relationships and individuals healing their relationships with themselves, including substance abuse, codependency, and healing from narcissistic relationships.
[00:01:20] James Marland: Awesome. Well, Anne, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.
[00:01:23] Anne Burkart: Oh, thank you. So glad to be here today. Appreciate it.
[00:01:27] James Marland: So that's a lot, uh, that, that you do. What What's Charlotte like right now?
[00:01:33] Anne Burkart: Oh, Charlotte is, I think we're starting to hit pollen season. Everything's already, yeah, it's, it's hard to believe it's, it's already hit 80 and we're just at the beginning of March, but it is just bursting out spring everywhere
[00:01:46] James Marland: you.
[00:01:47] James Marland: What are, uh, so hearing about eighties at the, uh, end of February, beginning of March, yes. Makes me wonder, what are the housing prices in Charlotte ?
[00:01:57] Anne Burkart: They're blooming just as much as the platinum are right here Now, Charlotte, Charlotte is one of the top real estate markets in the country, and. Just things are just still flying off the shelves
[00:02:08] James Marland: here.
[00:02:09] James Marland: Okay. Well, 80 in March. I can understand. Yeah. Why ? Uh, I'll, I'll stick with my Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We're, we're, we're in the fifties, sixties, so it's not bad. Mm-hmm. just not, just not 80. Yeah. So, uh, so I did your little introduction, but, uh, why don't you tell us a little bit about.
[00:02:31] Anne Burkart: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's as, as you said, I am a marriage and family therapist.
[00:02:36] Anne Burkart: I work primarily with couples, um, and people working through different types of attachments. Uh, really everybody has a relationship going on in their life, and as I said, sometimes it's the person that you, you were living with. Sometimes it's somebody that you wish were in your life, like somebody that you're hoping to meet.
[00:02:56] Anne Burkart: Maybe it's somebody that you lost at some point, a parent or a relationship, or sometimes it's just working on the relationship with ourself. How is that affecting how we show up in the day and, and how we approach our life and the decisions that we're making. So all lots of good places in there where things just kind of weave together.
[00:03:16] Anne Burkart: And, you know, I sit with folks and, you know, take that journey with them trying to, to put the puzzle pieces of life together.
[00:03:25] James Marland: Great. And th those last three, three or four things from your intro about substance abuse codependency. Mm-hmm. and narcissism. Yeah. Those aren't, those aren't easy, like those are heavy hitters as far as diagnoses and problems.
[00:03:39] James Marland: How did you kind of gear your. towards that way, because it sounds like you took the hard road with, with that .
[00:03:49] Anne Burkart: Well, some, you know, really some of those things, um, are a part of my practice because they've been a part of my life in different ways. And, you know, very often with therapists, we, we, the places and therapy and practice that resonate with us.
[00:04:05] Anne Burkart: are places that touch us. Mm-hmm. . And you know, for me that's a very important part of the person that I bring into the room when I'm sitting with clients. Um, and so yeah, that's a part of the journey that I've had and coming into the place where I am. And, you know, I share that with, with my clients and, you know, hopefully use the experiences that I've had to help them along
[00:04:28] James Marland: their.
[00:04:30] James Marland: Great. And that's one of the, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, because you, uh, when we were just doing our little meet and greet, you talked about your story and how it's like windy and . It, it isn't like a direct path from like, I graduated high school and I always wanted to be a therapist and I, I went to graduate school and I stuttered my office.
[00:04:50] James Marland: Um, you have this interesting story that we're gonna talk about in a few minutes mm-hmm. about how you started. and where you ended up, and now where, uh, people come to you mm-hmm. for, um, the Gottman, um, train the, like the, you're the expert, right? Like you're, you're the expert in your area on this and it wasn't something that you had started out planning, but just something you worked Ford.
[00:05:14] James Marland: Mm-hmm. . So we're gonna get to that. Before we do that, let's do our tool tip or tech, uh, of the week. I'll start first and I read this, uh, , um, this is just a tip of the week. It's from Adam Grant. Uh, I follow him on LinkedIn, uh, and he wrote, he's an author and he, he wrote, he had this phrase, we miss out on opportunities when we only ask what could go wrong.
[00:05:42] James Marland: It's also worth asking what could go right. Change carries risk. We might fail, but sticking to the status quo also brings risk. We might fail to. , it's better to test and learn than to never test it all. Mm-hmm. . And I just, I felt that because yeah. Uh, my, my default, if you've listened to this show or read some of my stuff, my default is security
[00:06:09] James Marland: Mm-hmm. , my, my default is status quo. Yeah. And not to take risks, not to put yourself out there, uh, because of the fear of failure, the fear of fear of judgment, the fear of comparison, and. , I love this turn, that staying, staying, the status quo is, is also risky. Like you could risk your future. You could risk mm-hmm.
[00:06:36] James Marland: your growth. You could risk the joy that you can get from the change, even though it's painful and, and. Like I wrote it out on a three by five card, and I'm gonna read it a couple times just to, just to help me remember that staying the same is also risky. Uh, what do you, what do you think about that, Ann?
[00:06:58] Anne Burkart: Oh, I, that resonates so, so much with me as well. I was just letting there listening and letting it soak in and thinking, oh, I've got to get a copy of this and, and take this in and, and make it a part of what I talk about with. You know, it, it resonated with me because one of the reasons I named my practice Embrace is because it didn't, to me, it is all about going through life and embracing the experiences that we can have.
[00:07:25] Anne Burkart: Mm-hmm. and I have found in, you know, going into solo practice and launching and that sort of thing. Finding, embracing my fears has been one of the most joyful and most freeing things that I've ever done. And again, most unexpected. Um, you know, I spent so many years and decades going, don't wanna face that fear, don't wanna look at it, wanna pretend it's not there.
[00:07:49] Anne Burkart: And yet in these moments where I have learned to just look at it in the eye, stare it down. And face it. It is so freeing. And life on the other side of that can be just absolutely wonderful. So absolutely prove it completely. All
[00:08:04] James Marland: right. Uh, so, um, thanks for your perspective on that life on the other side, that, that would also be a good name for a podcast or put it on a t-shirt or a bumper sticker too, because life on the other side mm-hmm.
[00:08:17] James Marland: of your fear is much better. Oh, yes. Alright. So Anne, what's your tip or tool or tech of the.
[00:08:24] Anne Burkart: Yeah. What I've been talking about with my clients lately is, is something that one of my, my peers from practice of practices, um, has going on in her office right now. And it's the idea she's a financial coach and, and her idea was, um, restriction is poverty.
[00:08:39] Anne Burkart: And it's like, Ooh, Hannah, I've got to borrow that one. And talking with my clients and about how our fears, kind of tapping into what you were saying, how our fears restrict us and what it keeps us from being able. Experience in life and taking poverty, the idea of poverty out of just financial poverty and into poverty of emotion and poverty of relationship and poverty of connection.
[00:09:06] Anne Burkart: And so my clients and I, um, the women's group that are run, we've been talking about this restriction that we have emotionally when we don't allow ourselves to go outside of the, the box or the rules or the mindset that we have for our.
[00:09:22] James Marland: Great. Tha thanks. Thanks for that. That's, uh, another way to think of, you know, not poverty is not just money, but poverty of like lack of experience, lack of growth, lack of relationships.
[00:09:33] James Marland: Mm-hmm. , um, exactly. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. So now we're gonna move into your story, which is the, you know, the purpose for this, this, uh, interview is just you're, you were sharing about your experiences. Mm-hmm. how you ended up where you were mm-hmm. . And I was like, oh, this, this is something the audience would want to learn.
[00:09:54] James Marland: Because as we're talking about growing and scaling, it's, you have grown at many different stages of your career to finally where at the end, as I said, I, you know, spoiler, the people come to you for something that is well, well, um, needed. So, And you found your niche, so I wanted to hear about that. Yeah.
[00:10:15] James Marland: And just expl have a conversation with you about how you mm-hmm. , you know, you started, so, you know, why don't you, um, can you tell me maybe, uh, your, your story and how you came into the field? Yeah.
[00:10:29] Anne Burkart: Yeah. Um, so my story began years ago when I was a little girl. Um, had a sister raised by a single mother, um, and mom and probably a, a security type thing, said, okay, my sister, you're going to be the nurse and you're going to be the teacher.
[00:10:45] Anne Burkart: This is the way life is going to be. It's gonna be fabulous. You can have your babies and stay home with them during the summertime, and life is going to be wonderful. Uh, and I did that. And, um, it was not what I wanted to do. I had wanted to be a journalist, but I went to school, got my, um, teaching certificate, got a master's in education, um, got married, had a baby, did all of that kind of fast forward a bunch of years and hit those years in marriage where things sometimes, um, start to come apart.
[00:11:14] Anne Burkart: Mm-hmm. and went through that and became a single mother with a child who was in. Middle school, going into high school, um, tough years and took a while, spending that time trying to get myself back up on my feet, trying to get my child into a good place and getting, you know, launched and really starting to think about what do we want that next phase in our life to look like.
[00:11:42] Anne Burkart: and starting to recognize then I ne had never learned how to dream. I was never allowed to do that. And so making decisions in more of the short term, what do I need to do? What do I need to do to get us going? What do I need to do to keep us financially afloat during these times? Um, did not want to go back to teaching.
[00:12:01] Anne Burkart: You know, teaching is an absolute wonderful profession and it is difficult to be a single parent on that salary, you know? Um, ended up going into. Started selling real estate. Um, you know, did that while my daughter was going through high school. Um, finally got to that wonderful place where she launched, very excited, went off to college, had a great first semester.
[00:12:25] Anne Burkart: She was excited about her major student athlete and is a, a parent. You know, you kind of cross your fingers and you hold your breath and you're like, oh. You know, we just threw the spaghetti up against the wall. Let's hope it sticks. We'll see what happens this first semester, and she came home that first semester.
[00:12:41] Anne Burkart: Great grades. We had a wonderful time watching the events. Um, she was, uh, participating in with her athletics. She came home for Christmas and was like, this is wonderful. Can't wait to go back. And as a parent, I kind of went, sure. Wow, okay, I can breathe the sigh of relief right now. Um, she went back to, Very shortly after that, our wonderful, wonderful little furry companion.
[00:13:07] Anne Burkart: Um, we had a Westie named Coconut. We'd had for about 15 years, and she had gotten my daughter through all of the transitioning and the difficult moments and things like that, and we lost her about two weeks. After my daughter went to school, and for me, that really kickstarted a lot of, lot of pivotal moments for me.
[00:13:28] Anne Burkart: Um, the grief that I went through in losing coconut was profound. , it really shook me to my core. I had always considered her to be my daughter's dog, and, but suddenly I was at home by myself, a single parent, an empty nester parent. The companion that we'd had for 15 years was gone. Yeah. And I would get up in the morning and I would just sit on the edge to my bed.
[00:13:54] Anne Burkart: And so for an hour, , you know, everything in my life had felt so incredibly empty. Hmm. And I started questioning just really what am I supposed to be doing in my life? And at that point I had been doing, um, some volunteer work with one of the nonprofits here in Charlotte, um, a mental health agency and doing some fundraising and board work and volunteer work for them.
[00:14:19] Anne Burkart: And just really having this moment where that fed my. going into some of the events and, and working with the folks that we were serving just brought meaning to my life. And so I had this balance between, I've got this career in sales, which has absolutely no fulfillment whatsoever, but you know, it pays the bills.
[00:14:40] Anne Burkart: It was great to for that. And then working in the nonprofit part and going, this really. It gives me joy. It brings me joy. It's my reason to get up every morning. What do I do? And so I thought, okay, this is my turn. Child is off in college. Everything looks good to go with that. What do I need to be doing with my life?
[00:15:01] Anne Burkart: And trying to find a job in the nonprofit field was eye-opening, opening. I had reached a point where very, very humbling. Looking at a very entry level position with a local nonprofit just to do some basic fundraising and, uh, I am in no way qualified for this job. I don't know how to do an Excel spreadsheet.
[00:15:25] Anne Burkart: I dunno how to work Microsoft. I've never created a PowerPoint in my life. I have no tech skills at all, and that was. It was humbling is is the best word it can. It shook me to realize I was in the middle of my life and all of these deep experiences that I had been through addiction, mental health issues within my family, divorce, single parent, you know, rebuilding life, you know, had master's degree education and looking at my life and going.
[00:16:02] Anne Burkart: I have all these incredible experiences and yet I'm not qualified to do this job because I don't have any computer experience. I don't know how to do anything. What in the world am I supposed to be doing with my life? And I was about six weeks after the, the loss of the dog and just really starting to head into to some depression with all of that.
[00:16:25] Anne Burkart: And I remember going to bed one night, it was Wednesday. Planning on getting up and going to my sales office the next morning and about two o'clock during the night. I remember just suddenly sitting straight up in bed and hearing this voice say, you need to go to this local university tomorrow morning, and I just went, okay.
[00:16:47] Anne Burkart: And laid down and went back to sleep. In my mind, I can hear that voice as clearly now as, as the day that it, that it spoke to me in my mind. I know it was, I know it was God. That is my higher power now. Um, and I knew that was who it was, and I had absolutely no questioning at that voice, and I followed it.
[00:17:06] Anne Burkart: I did not have an appointment at the university. I showed up at the admissions department and said, you know, I'm not really sure why I'm here, but I think I'm supposed to go back to school. Is there anybody here who talked to me And I spoke with him about my background that I had a Master's in education and I was working in this nonprofit and this, and this person in admission said, you know, I really think you need to speak with this person in this department because this person teaches in these two different areas.
[00:17:32] Anne Burkart: And I think that was the person who can point you in the right direction. and I did the same thing. Walked over to that person's office. I showed up, I knocked on the door. She was there, the universe was helping me out. She was in her office and she took about 20 minutes and sat down and talked to me and she goes, you don't need to be here.
[00:17:50] Anne Burkart: You need to go and get your graduate degree in this. And I said, well, I don't, you know, marriage and family therapist said, well, I don't have a psychology background. I used to teach first grade. I'm not qualified. You know, although there is a lot of psychology,
[00:18:03] James Marland: you know, there's a lot of temper tantrums in first grade and bad behavior.
[00:18:10] James Marland: people learning to be real people. So yeah.
[00:18:13] Anne Burkart: Sharing crayons and pencils, all sort of stuff. Yeah. You know, it's like
[00:18:18] James Marland: all, some overlap.
[00:18:19] Anne Burkart: Yeah. You know, all the support things we learned in kindergarten, first grade is so very
[00:18:24] James Marland: true. Maybe all therapists should be first grade teachers first before they become
[00:18:29] Anne Burkart: therapists.
[00:18:29] Anne Burkart: It, it really is a lot of fun. First grade can, can be a very joyful experience that, yeah. Anyway, so this, this, this lovely, this lovely woman says, go to this university. It was about 10 minutes away. Just go talk to this person. Tell her what's going on. and I did, I, I made an appointment. I went over there the next day and that the head of the Department of Marriage and Family Therapy department said, okay, you know, let's get your application in.
[00:18:58] Anne Burkart: And this is the moment where life just really shifted because at this point it was middle of March, end of March, I had missed the admissions deadline. I had never taken the G R E, um, and within three. , I put my application in. I had the references in all my transcripts from the multiple universities that I've gone to.
[00:19:24] Anne Burkart: I went through the group interview, found out that I needed to take the g r e, that was on Tuesday afternoon. I signed up for it, took it on Thursday morning. Um, I think I just mostly got credit for spelling my name correctly and knowing what the, the date was, um, but made it through that. Sat through a class and was admitted in three weeks.
[00:19:43] Anne Burkart: Wow. Six weeks later I started the program and it was such going into that program. Um, it was just, it, it took my breath away. Having that moment where I sat in there and went, all of a sudden, everything in my life made sense. All the experiences that left me feeling so doubting of my own self-worth because they didn't transfer to the normal resume.
[00:20:17] Anne Burkart: You know, they didn't leave me knowing how to fill out an Excel sheet spreadsheet, but they did leave me with that ability to sit with somebody else and go, I get. , I hear it. It makes sense to me. I understand that feeling. You know, I'm that ability to empathize, that ability to be able to tap into those feelings and recognize it in the other person and feel it along with them.
[00:20:45] Anne Burkart: Um, You know, I had my life made sense. It's the best that I can say it. And you know, such an incredible, incredible moment to have had such a clear signal that this is what your path is. This is the place that you are supposed to be. Um, and you know, here I am these years later. Um, so joyful. I mean, I absolutely.
[00:21:11] Anne Burkart: What I do, um, I've had a professor, I started my gotman training my first year in school. And I'd even had a professor tell me what a waste of time it was to do that. What? Really? Yeah. Why? It is fun. It's a waste of money, you know, you need to be practicing this type of, of therapy, this theory. Um, this is who you are.
[00:21:31] Anne Burkart: It was, you know, she wanted me to do narrative and around grief and loss, and I said, yeah, that's a part of it, but this just speaks to me. And again, it was me starting that beginning place in my life where allowing those places where I feel like this just speaks to me. To kind of put that fear aside, to put it aside.
[00:21:56] Anne Burkart: That idea of I can't see it, I can't touch it. How do I just honor this feeling that I have and learning to do that and learning to. That I will understand it at some point. It will make sense at some point. And it has. So I've continued while in graduate school doing my Gottman training, graduating, finishing Gottman training, um, and just have found myself in this position where everything about my life makes sense and I can sit with people and go, yeah, I get that.
[00:22:29] Anne Burkart: And it is authentic. I. You know, it feels authentic and real for me. Um, and we're able to reach those places where they are finding the place where this makes sense for them and we can get to those vulnerable moments where the healing actually occurs.
[00:22:49] James Marland: That, yeah, that's ins, that's inspiring. Um, I wanted to, to back up a little bit.
[00:22:55] James Marland: Cause you said you had a. . I don't know if you, if you saw the video, I wrote like eight things down. So we'll try to get to some of them and just feel, feel free to, um, you know, talk a little bit about some of these. So you, you talked about a point in your life where you were, you sat down and you're like, what am I going to do with my life?
[00:23:15] James Marland: Yeah. And what you went to was the, the things that brought you. , uh, with your volunteer work, can you, can you talk about that a little bit and how important it is to find, find those things that bring meaning to your life?
[00:23:32] Anne Burkart: Um, yes. Um, I will. Yeah. To be perfectly honest, I didn't really go looking for those experiences again.
[00:23:41] Anne Burkart: I had a friend in my life, um, I think she . I had a coup, I had a couple of wonderful friends that I think got really tired of hearing me grouse about, of trying to date after divorce and, and that sort of thing. And they're like, and you have got to go get a life. You've got to go find something to do. . and I had been doing volunteer work before then with, um, um, an agency that, that supports teachers here in Charlotte.
[00:24:06] Anne Burkart: And a friend of mine said, Hey, I've, I've got this, this person that I know who is rotating off the board with this mental health, um, agency, and I think it'd be a great fit for you to, to go work over there to start spending some time with them. And it was the same thing. And then I, I didn't realize that that was the beginning of this pattern of people being in my life and kind.
[00:24:29] Anne Burkart: Redirecting me when I would allow myself to be influenced by that. And she said, you know, go talk to this person. And I did. And I started as a volunteer with one of their programs and working with, um, the folks that we were serving in that program and just going, wow, this is. Amazing to sit with people in this place in their life and just to be in that, in that particular program.
[00:24:54] Anne Burkart: Um, just to be a friend to people working through, um, mental distress of some kind. I knew to be a companion, a friend with them, and we wouldn't, I would meet with my person, you know, once a month, twice a month, tax check in, that sort of thing. and just recognizing now I was starting that path towards my life, beginning to make sense because of, um, for me it resonated with me because in my family, um, the places of addiction, the places of mental health difficulties, distress and diagnoses and things like that, um, you know, I couldn't lean into.
[00:25:36] Anne Burkart: I think, you know, it wasn't unfamiliar to me and I could be there with somebody and go, Uhhuh, . Yeah, I know, I understand that. Mm-hmm. , I can feel that. I didn't know how to put the therapist words to it, but I, I knew that I was comfortable in that space and it felt calming for me. You know, my life was beginning to make sense in those places, so, so, yeah.
[00:26:05] James Marland: uh, uh, I find, um, man, I, I wish, I wish I had automatic recall, but what, as you were talking, I was thinking about Victor Frankl's book, man, search for Meaning. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and like how you can endure, like when you lose meaning and purpose in your life, you're, you kind of lose hope, but if you have some meaning, , um, you can endure the most horrific situations.
[00:26:29] James Marland: I know the book is much deeper than that, but that's what I, that's where I went to as you're talking about your situation mm-hmm. and how there was like all this deep sense of loss and like rebuilding and like, what is, where is the meaning? Uh, and you found it, not, not necessarily in serving yourself, but reaching out to other people and I just, yes.
[00:26:50] James Marland: You know, it's, it, it spoke to me a little bit there. . Uh, you also, you also talked about some of, like you called it shook something shook you and I just wrote down, shook me events, like Yeah. Um, there, there are times I guess in our lives where we have to, you know, we get shook or call our call to action.
[00:27:12] James Marland: Mm-hmm. , um, uh, so. How do we recognize these like events that shook us and so that we can take action, uh, for that. ,
[00:27:28] Anne Burkart: that's a really good question. Um, I talk about that with my clients. Um, and this was one of the fears, uh, multiple fears that I've had to work through over the past few years. And it's the idea, I think, of taking the blinders off and I'd had a therapist challenge me, um, on this.
[00:27:47] Anne Burkart: In one instance where I was wasn't seeing and giving credit to my child for some things happening, and the therapist just looked me straight in the eye and said, Anne, you've gotta take the blinders off. Hmm, success. Her success does not come in the way that you necessarily want it or have to judge it as being, you need to take the blinders off, put away your measuring stick, and just let her be herself.
[00:28:13] Anne Burkart: And that was a pivotal moment for me. and I talk about this within the women's group. It's the, these places in our life where we have that really small moment. that kind of shakes us a little bit. That that moment of Oh wow, yeah. Didn't see it like that. Now I get it. That perspective, um, one, we have to be willing to allow that to influence us, um, to be willing to, to hear those words and recognize that maybe there's a little truth in there about myself, and am I willing to recognize myself in that truth.
[00:28:52] Anne Burkart: and look at this as a place of learning and growth, or am I going to push back against it? And when we allow ourselves to accept it, to learn and grow from it and it's successful, how do we then apply that to other places in our life? What are other places where we can have those moments or maybe life or universe or a higher power is trying to give us those moments and we're just not recognizing them cuz we've got those blinders on.
[00:29:19] Anne Burkart: Life has to look like. Um,
[00:29:22] James Marland: uh, I certainly resonate with the blinders. Uh, yeah. It's so much easier to see the problems in other people's lives than the, the, the problems in our own lives. And that just speaks to, you know, being willing to open yourself up to a few, or coupled Yeah. People, a group of people that can speak wisdom and truth into your lives and give you that perspective that we are, you know, we're blind to until it's pointed out.
[00:29:49] James Marland: Um, and uh, yeah.
[00:29:52] Anne Burkart: Yeah. I think there's also an element in there, James, of, of giving up control. Mm-hmm. , and I don't mean giving up control in a, in an I'm helpless sort of manner, but just allowing ourselves to absorb what the day is delivering. and going, what part of this do I use going forward? Rather than going through that with that idea of that restriction of my day must look like this.
[00:30:20] Anne Burkart: It has to flow in this manner. These things have to happen, and more importantly, this is what I'm working on. I'm working on with clients and relationships. This idea that I need you, you must respond in a certain way to me so that my day stays. Going forward in this way, that sense of control, which gives us a false sense of security and safety mm-hmm.
[00:30:44] Anne Burkart: um, can keep us from really missing those moments that will tear us down, take us down to our foundation, and allow us to grow and, and as we rebuild.
[00:30:54] James Marland: Yeah. Um, I think we, we miss a lot. Well, I know I miss a lot when I'm not looking for that or aware of it. Mm-hmm. . Couple, couple more things. One is, uh, you, you, you just, uh, when, when you had to make a decision, you just showed up.
[00:31:13] James Marland: Like you went, you went to the place, you went to the office, you did the stuff. Mm-hmm. , you could have not done it, but Yeah, sometimes oper, sometimes growth happens when we show up. And do the thing, the just the next thing. You didn't know where you were going, . You didn't know what career you were showing up for.
[00:31:32] James Marland: You're just like, and I'm gonna go to this office and see what happens.
[00:31:36] Anne Burkart: And, and you, and you know what? Any anybody who who knows me will go, okay, that is just so not Ann. I, I am just not normally that person. I've got the to-do list, I've got the calendar, all, all this sort of stuff. Um, but that, that voice, that voice, Spoke.
[00:31:54] Anne Burkart: I heard such surety, such clarity in it that I did not have a moment's doubt in that, and that was completely opposite of everything else that was going on in my life. And I think it finally took me to that place, that place where I said, why. , you know, these accepting this moment of just heard this. Just go see what it's all about.
[00:32:25] Anne Burkart: That moment of why not, why not This path, uh, was very, very different and thank goodness, you know, finally came to my senses and began listening.
[00:32:38] James Marland: And then, and then, uh, yeah, and I'm glad you did the, the last thing you talked about, which, um, . Uh, it, it, it, it's, another thing that spoke to me was when you talked about joy and your joyful life mm-hmm.
[00:32:53] James Marland: Mm-hmm. and how your, how your, your. The work you're doing now is bringing you joy. Mm-hmm. , and I think there's a lot of people out there mm-hmm. , even in the therapy world, therapists who are not joyful, like their, their lives and the work that they do is not bringing them joy. Yeah. And it's, it's more of a grind in a, you know, I'm gonna do this to make a living until I die, type of.
[00:33:19] James Marland: So can you, this is like a multi-part question. Sure. But can you describe, so can you describe the importance of joy in your life? And then if somebody, if somebody doesn't have that joy, how, what would you advise them? Like how would they, how could they pursue their joy and find, you know, find some of that joy for the.
[00:33:41] Anne Burkart: Yeah. Um, for me, the, the, the joy in my life, the joy in this profession is about embracing the growth that every day brings. I think one of the best things about my job is that the person I wake up in, as in the morning, I am not that person when I go to bed at. , there has been something, a discussion, a conversation, a moment of learning that has happened that changes.
[00:34:11] Anne Burkart: Changes me. . Um, and those moments are there for all of us, um, to be able to use in our life. And I think a lot of times, James, it comes down to are we able to define ourselves or are we in a place where we are allowing other people to define us? Either through this is,
[00:34:32] James Marland: say that again. Can you say that again?
[00:34:34] James Marland: Cause I, I think that's like you're hitting on another thing I struggle with. So, go ahead, say that. Can you say that again for me? Yeah.
[00:34:42] Anne Burkart: You know, are, are, do we have the mindset, are we defining ourselves or are we living in a mindset where we are allowing other people to define who we are going to be? And a lot of times that comes down to that sense of self.
[00:34:58] Anne Burkart: you know, do, am I deciding my worth and accepting my worth and and embracing my worth, or am I allowing other people to make that decision for me? And that can happen within a relationship. Again, the relationship with yourself, if it's negative self-talk, if it's a relationship, an intimate relationship, or a parent-child relationship, or even the messages that society send.
[00:35:22] Anne Burkart: You know that you are worthy if you drive this certain type of car, if you make this type of money, or if you've had this profession, that sort of thing. Um, and it's really about. Moving towards that place of embracing our own worthiness and to kind of leave those measuring sticks behind and go, what truly brings me joy and my belief now after all of these years of moving through this, of landing in this place of, you know, when I follow my joy, all the other things will follow.
[00:35:58] Anne Burkart: Yeah. And when I'm following my joy and I'm in that place and I am showing up as my authentic self, and I think at the, at the basis of life, people just want connection. They want to be in relationships that feel good, that feel authentic, that they can show their vulnerability, receive support, give support, um, and are joyful in that way.
[00:36:23] James Marland: Yeah. Showing up as your authentic self. Mm-hmm. is, is, is key. And, and not comparing yourself or letting the other forces, uh, dictate, you know, I don't have this car, that means I'm not happy, but do you really want the car? Like, like it's, it's a, it's an interesting and thought-provoking question. . Uh, so it, so it sounds like you've learned some lessons along the way.
[00:36:47] James Marland: Let's spend a few minutes talking about those lessons, uh, that you've learned. What are some of the things that your journey has taught you?
[00:36:54] Anne Burkart: Oh, my journey has taught me, um, that embracing your fears. It's so much better on the other side when you lean in and you look at things and. You know, I, I, I tell my folks, um, you gotta go through the muck to get unstuck.
[00:37:12] Anne Burkart: You know, you've gotta lean into that and. Come out the other end and embrace the learning that comes along the way with that, even the lessons that are hard, um, for me, going into solo practice, um, so much doubt about it, you know, financial fears, you know, from, from growing up. My mother was a social worker and.
[00:37:37] Anne Burkart: So we, we never grow up with the riches or, you know, the things like that. Very much scarcity when going to the grocery store and that sort of thing, and all those things, bringing all this forward, um, you know, and, and listening to, to Les McGowan do a q and a one day and, you know, he's like, aunt, you just gotta face your numbers.
[00:37:56] Anne Burkart: You know, you get, and he tells a story about how he would sit down in the morning and just stare at his spreadsheet and go, yep, this is what they are. And as a practice owner having to learn to do that and suddenly realizing that the avoiding facing the numbers of the business side of everything, I wasn't experiencing the joy of this, of these moments of, wow, you know, You know, done this and this and this and, and, and this is actually working.
[00:38:28] Anne Burkart: That's unbelievable. So unexpected because, you know, certainly it didn't go into therapy for the business side of it. You know, it's all about the emotional side of things, um, but also just really learning to be okay with who I am. And to be okay to say this idea of saying no, to be able to say yes. I talk about that with clients a lot too, and in my practice saying no to some of the things that would be financially more successful in order to be able to say yes.
[00:39:01] Anne Burkart: To things that are my core, my value. Um, and it's things like I, you know, I do individual and couples sessions. Um, I also do the groups, uh, which I do at basically at cost because for some folks that allows 'em a place to be able to come in and experience the connection that they need. They, that being in that room with everybody else.
[00:39:28] Anne Burkart: and for those moments, suddenly their life feels normal. Their life is making sense. They feel this sense of connection, this idea, I'm not alone in my self-doubt or, or whatever it is that I may be working through in that moment. Um, and it's important to me. You know, to, to give that space to people to be able to offer it.
[00:39:49] Anne Burkart: Um, and then also some of the workshops that I do for couples, again, it's, it's about just allowing that access for people to be able to come in and, and have the moments that they need with that. Um, For me, that's, uh, and I also work with the, the university from which I graduated with their graduate students, going through their personal growth hours that, you know, we have to be put through our paces and work through our stuff before we're allowed to, to sit with other people.
[00:40:18] Anne Burkart: Um, and, uh, uh, giving them the opportunity to be able to do that. Because I think it's so much about, yes, I have a solo practice and there's the business side of it, but I also have the responsibility. and the belief and the value that what I do, I'm here because other people did that for me. Hmm. And so now it's my term and that's a part of, it's part of who I am, and it's a part of how I practice business with that.
[00:40:47] Anne Burkart: So it's kind of the balancing of those.
[00:40:51] James Marland: Yeah, that's, that's a wonderful story of saying true to who you are and doing the things you believe in, which makes you. , um, just stronger. Like it's just a stronger place of mm-hmm. , not just business, but a stronger person to, to work within your core beliefs. Yeah.
[00:41:12] James Marland: Um, which is, I'm sure is probably one of the reasons why you've been successful is working in the, the area that, that is your, your strength and your core. So I wanted to get, um, I did wanna get to the part about, um, learning when you, you had been a success, I'm sure. Like, can you tell that story? This is, I think you told this story in our meet and greet and, um, like Yeah.
[00:41:41] James Marland: Joe, can you just explain like you've been working and Yeah. And you're, your college professor said, don't go do this thing. It's gonna be a waste of time and money. You should do this other thing. Yeah. Uh, tell, tell your story about when you knew you were gonna be success, success.
[00:41:56] Anne Burkart: Yeah. So, you know, this the, the business side of things, you know, working in the planning and, you know, the, you know, trying to look at what are my plans going to be for 2023?
[00:42:06] Anne Burkart: What are the things that I wanted to do? All of that sort of thing. And, um, you know, finally getting this place of, okay, I'm, I'm, you know, I've got these, these, this workshop that I'm doing, love doing that love having that experience. Um, excuse me, the the women's group and now I wanna bring this workshop on and start doing this and, and that sort of thing.
[00:42:26] Anne Burkart: And again, it was one of those weeks, so unexpected and just kinda like what just happened and ran my advertising for the workshop, um, had run my advertising for the women's group and it was the women's group that got picked up by one of the local news. And said, Hey, you know, I just got this random email one day.
[00:42:47] Anne Burkart: Hey, we, we saw your, your mention of this and we'd like to talk with you and do an interview with you. And I mean, I had this moment of really what kind of scam email is this, you know,
[00:43:00] Anne Burkart: doesn't make any sense. Yeah, so like, okay, well, you know, looked it up and I went, oh my gosh, this is real. And unfortunately, the, the workshop had already, excuse me, the, the women's group had already started. So I, I'm, you know, that those entries were closed, but I said, Hey, you know, I've got this workshop coming up.
[00:43:15] Anne Burkart: I'd love to be able to talk with you about that. Because again, it's about bringing different types of, of mental healthcare. To different places in the community in different formats, just to try to allow access in, in many different ways and places that we can. They said, great, you know? Okay, so we got a date set for the show and.
[00:43:35] Anne Burkart: Went in and did the show and that was so much fun. So much fun. Loved, loved doing that. Um, I was on the show with a comic book artist and somebody who does Corgi rescues and went, wow, boy, I'm coming in after them. Wonder how this is gonna end up panning out? It's an interesting combination of, of topics to have that in the same week that that showed air.
[00:44:00] Anne Burkart: I had two, two, um, two folks reach out to chat and they both said, this person said, you are the one that I need to call. You. Were the one that I need to talk to in Charlotte. And it was so surprising because I. I did not know the person that was referring them. And I went, what just happened? How can that be?
[00:44:24] Anne Burkart: And you know, having this moment that weekend when I sat down and kind of reflected what, what went on this week of. . Wow. When, when did I become that person? I've just been going along, doing my thing and, you know, seeing my clients and showing up for work. Yeah, we're gonna do this workshop. You know, people were saying they need it, so we've created it and did it.
[00:44:44] Anne Burkart: Yep. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do this, and, and not really paying any attention to trying to, to be the expert or be the go-to person or anything like that, but just suddenly having this moment. You know, people going, you're the one that we want to talk to
[00:45:04] James Marland: specifically for the Gottman. Mm-hmm.
[00:45:06] James Marland: therapy, right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Like, wow. That, that is, that is such a full circle story. Uh, it just, it just, uh, I don't know. It warmed my heart a little bit about hearing where you just grind, grind, but you worked away in something that was passionate to you, that you felt called to do that was authentic to.
[00:45:28] James Marland: and, and you, you said people needed it. I just did it. You know, I just made it. And you were authentic to yourself and, and that authenticity, I think, resonates with people. And then you became known as, you know, without even trying, you became known as the person for couples interested in Gottman in your area, just through, not because of you, you, you had this master plan.
[00:45:53] James Marland: You know, like, oh, I'm gonna do these things and. and get these interviews and write these blog posts, which I'm sure are all helpful, but you, it just, you just worked at it and stayed true to your passions. Mm-hmm. and the good things came and I think that's a, a good message for people. Yeah. About nicheing and like being true to yourself.
[00:46:14] James Marland: It's all kind of wrapped up together. Finding the dream clients or the dream people that you have a special skill for. that you can help them get their key results quicker or quickly, and it's easy for you because it's who you are. I think that's one of the whole key parts of, of growing and scaling is just being true to who you are.
[00:46:36] James Marland: Mm-hmm. and finding the people who need what you have, and I just love your thing. People needed it. I built it and, and it took off. .
[00:46:47] Anne Burkart: Yeah, exactly. And not with the intention of, you know, becoming richer or anything like that. I mean, that's not what, you know, this field is really about it. It's about, at least for me, it is about, um, you know, Somebody, somebody ahead of me reached back and helped me along my journey.
[00:47:07] Anne Burkart: And that's what I do. And it is, I am, you know, every time somebody calls and says, Hey, you know, can we, can we talk for a few minutes? I'm humbled. And I'm humbled to sit with my clients and just so honored that they share their stories with me. And I have people who say, I've never told anybody this before in my life.
[00:47:29] Anne Burkart: And it is a moment that I, I respect that. I honor that I recognize the importance in it, and that is what changes me. That is why I go to bed every night, a different person than I woke up. .
[00:47:44] James Marland: Well, I, I don't think I could put a, a better bow on this episode than that statement. Um, uh, thank you for, for sharing the interview with me.
[00:47:54] James Marland: So we're gonna go into the, the one thing that we want people to remember from the show, uh, there, there's a whole lot here. Maybe, maybe if you're struggling with some of the, uh, like doubts and fears, you might wanna listen to this twice cuz this is packed. with some great advice. But the thing, the thing that stood out to me most was, uh, you said, uh, am I deciding my worth or am I letting other people define it for me?
[00:48:21] James Marland: Mm-hmm. , and, you know, that, that just spoke to me because, uh, there we are, we are. The, we can get trapped in comparison, and I've talked about this before in the, the show, but maybe that's why I'm talking about it again because it resonates with me. Yeah. That, um, you know, am I, how am I comparing myself? Am I comparing myself to the best me?
[00:48:44] James Marland: Am I comparing myself to what other thing I think other people want from me or expect from me? Mm-hmm. . And I really do think that the, the, the good things from life that we talk. The joy, the, the business success, helping other people that actually comes from your authentic self, not from what you think other people think you should be doing.
[00:49:09] James Marland: So thank you for that message, Anna. It just really resonated with me.
[00:49:13] Anne Burkart: Oh, you're welcome.
[00:49:14] James Marland: You're welcome. So do you have a one thing that you want people to remember from the. Oh,
[00:49:24] Anne Burkart: I would say let yourself dream. Let yourself take off the blinders. Be open to what is there waiting for you. There is an abundance of joy in life.
[00:49:37] Anne Burkart: It doesn't have to be defined in any certain way. Hmm. Take the small moments and let yourself feel. .
[00:49:47] James Marland: Great. Great advice. Well, thank Anne. Thanks so much for sharing with us today. Uh, where can people find you? Uh, where are you showing up online? Uh,
[00:49:57] Anne Burkart: yeah, my website is, um, www.embracerelationshipcounseling.com.
[00:50:04] Anne Burkart: Uh, and people can email me at ann n n e dot embrace counseling gmail.com.
[00:50:11] James Marland: Great. Uh, well, Anne, this was an amazing interview. Thanks so much for being, thanks for so much for being on the show and sharing with us your wisdom.
[00:50:22] Anne Burkart: Oh, thank you. Appreciate it so much. I've enjoyed it.
[00:50:25] James Marland: So, uh, thank you for listening to the Skilling Therapy practice.
[00:50:29] James Marland: Uh, you, the listener, is why, why do this show? It's what my way to give back and to inspire people, hope these shows are motivating and inspiring and. One more, one more message that you can do it. You can, you can grow and scale your business. Be authentic to yourself and make an impact in the world. And keep the lights on, like, like you can do it.
[00:50:54] James Marland: It's all those things. Um, this is James Marlin with Anne Bar Hart, uh, with a scaling therapy practice. Just remember to keep making those small steps that lead to big results. We'll see you next. And then we figure out where the stop recording button is.
